Grading the Coburn/Gudas trade...

[Polaris922]

Neither player has played a game. Pretty even so far.

[Mad Dog]

Hahahahaha.........  Well done.

[brelic]

Neither player has played a game. Pretty even so far.

 

Wait - not true. COburn has played 4 games for the 'Ning, and is on pace for 41 points!!!

 

[radoran]

Wait - not true. COburn has played 4 games for the 'Ning, and is on pace for 41 points!!!

 

 

Is Coburn wearing #44?

 

Pretty even? It's like a first round draft pick wasn't part of the trade. Or the Flyers didn't get a younger, cheaper player PLUS that pick.

 

Why do you think @Polaris922 had all the facts in line about Timonen, but missed some of the obvious facts in the Coburn deal?

 

hmmm...

 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Hehe...yea, not much to grade at this point as Coburn has seen limited play time for the Lightning and Gudas of course, other than wear an orange n black jersey in a press conference, has done nada for Philly.

 

I said when the trade was made that NEXT season would be the most telling to see who made out better on this trade.

 

I will put the pick Philly got aside (even though for the Flyers, in addition to unloading Coburn, that was an excellent extra), because picks wise, the Bolts were able to AFFORD to give that pick, because they got picks from other teams in other deals.

Not like the Bolts were giving up their one and only good pick with no young talent in the pipeline. 

Bolts dealt from a position of strength pick-wise when they sent it Philly's way, so really, I am not concerned over the Bolts giving it up.

 

Now on to the actual players.

Coburn for the Bolts, CLEARLY was a 'now' type deal. Obviously, with him being injured, "now" means next year...or possibly Round 2 of the playoffs...if the Bolts get there.

For Philly, Gudas was about creating cap room and gaining a younger D-man to have on the team for a longer period of time than Coburn was going to be.

On that front, the Flyers succeeded.

 

With the Bolts, I don't believe Gudas would ever be a top pair defenseman. His skating and puck handling, while ok, aren't at the level that they need to be to be a top pair guy.

But boy is he a nasty, nasty, hitter, has a pretty decent shot from the blue line, and does know how to find the quick transition pass if the forwards can get open for him.

 

Long term, I will go out on a limb and say Philly won this trade based on the fact that Gudas will most likely be a Flyer long after Coburn's contract with the Bolts expires (next season)...with the likelihood of TB re-signing Coburn to be slim.

Again, Coburn was a 'fix it now' type deal...and if the Bolts win, or at least go far this year and next, and he was part of it, then the Bolts got what they wanted out of the guy.

 

But defensive depth in the pipeline would probably dictate that Coburn and his salary will NOT be part of the TB Lightning beyond next season, while Radko Gudas has the potential to be a solid Flyer D-man on their 2nd or 3rd pairing for a few years to come.

 

Like I said, next season, especially the head to head meetings between the Bolts and Flyers, will be telling on the measure of this trade.

[Polaris922]

@brelic

@radoran

I'd like to see a dozen games or so before grading either player. Though I posted this to mock your Timonen sensitivity Rad, I thought Coburn was your best defenseman against the Pens in the series two years ago, so I do believe Tampa got the better player, but the late first round puck balances that out fairly well.

So the real question is... Will Coburn be the player Flyers fans were cursing or the one I saw two seasons ago? Will Gudas fare well after his knee surgery and continue to be a physical albeit penalized defenseman? Too many variables yet to judge.

Unlike the Timonen trade, which could have as few as zero games left to judge it by.

[Polaris922]

Hahahahaha......... Well done.

Thank you. Lol

[radoran]

Though I posted this to mock your Timonen sensitivity Rad,

 

Sensitivity? You mean in the thread where I specifically said he was a "spent" asset in Philadelphia? The thread where I said I wouldn't have liked the deal as a Blackhawks fan?

 

There's one person with "Timonen sensitivity" around here and you see him in the mirror when you're alone in the bathroom.

 

[Polaris922]

Sensitivity? You mean in the thread where I specifically said he was a "spent" asset in Philadelphia? The thread where I said I wouldn't have liked the deal as a Blackhawks fan?

There's one person with "Timonen sensitivity" around here and you see him in the mirror when you're alone in the bathroom.

Your sensitivity isn't about where Timonen is so much as the fact that it's me pointing it out . You've been right with me for the most part in assessing the trade, just like to incorrectly state I do so out of some dislike for Timonen rather than any interest in evaluating the deal from a hockey perspective. Something I've also done in discussions about the Pens trades.

[flyerrod]

@Polaris922

 

Coburn is no longer wearing a Flyers sweater=HUGE WIN for the Flyers.....anything after that is just icing on the cake.

[King Knut]

Neither player has played a game. Pretty even so far.

 

 

To be fair, Coburn has 2 assists and is a +3 in the 4 games he managed to play.  I think if the Lightning can get that kind of game from him in the playoffs, they'll be getting more than any of us figured they would. 

[Polaris922]

@flyerrod

Maybe he just needed a fresh start?

@King Knut

He started well just not comfortable judging only a few games.

[Vincent05]

@Polaris922

More like he needs a fresh brain.

[jammer2]

@TropicalFruitGirl26  I like your trade break down....I just have a few nagging questions. While I know where Stevie Y is with this trade, he spent a valuable asset in attempt to go further in the playoffs. I'm questioning this a bit...I don't think they have the team to win it all this year (could happen just unlikely) so why spend a 1st rounder....it's not just a 1st rounder, it's a 1st rounder in one of the best drafts ever. Why not just sit tight and select a player that is better than Coburn in the draft? While Coburn has a ton of NHL playoffs experience...he does have the propensity for very costly brain farts. He contributes little to zero offense and has not a hint of a mean streak for such a big player. I just think the Bolts could have gotten a better player for their 1st round pick....*especially* since they might not re-sign him, so basically he's a one year rental with 2 playoff appearances sandwiched inbetween....that is not a good return. Of course, the one area where Coburn will and should help is the transition game, he can lug the puck up ice if there is not to much pressure on him. The big thing for me is the Bolts inexperience in the nets for the playoffs. There is documented proof that inexperienced goalies can win it all, but it RARELY happens. Usually you need a few playoffs years behind you to learn how to win the big games....and that is true especially for goalies.

 

 From a Flyers perspective, the 20ish pick and Gudas is a very nice return for what they gave up. I have no doubt in my mind that Gudas will instantly become one of the most beloved Flyers D-men ever. He's a true warrior who relishes the chance to lay a vicious hit....he's basically a bit faster and much nastier version of Grossmann. Flyer fans are gonna LOVE this guy!! The draft pick is gonna be nice, a young LW like Bittner, or young d-man will be welcome after the Flyers select #7....maybe, just maybe the Flyers like Blackwood from Barrie and make him the top goalie selected with the Bolts pick...gonna be fun to see which way they go with this wildcard pick!!

[radoran]

Why not just sit tight and select a player that is better than Coburn in the draft?

 

I think if you go back over the 20-30 picks in the first round you'll find that there are generally half the guys that don't really pan out, with some that never even reach the NHL.

 

I know this draft is "deeper" but at the same time, you won't get two playoff shots with a defenceman that has Finals experience in the draft.

[jammer2]

@radoran  I know the point you are trying to make, but because of this very deep draft, I think the Bolts could have done better than Coburn...just my opinion.

[ruxpin]

Neither player has played a game. Pretty even so far.

 

 

LMAO!  I laughed hard when I saw the thread title and who started it.   That's awesome!

[Polaris922]

LMAO! I laughed hard when I saw the thread title and who started it. That's awesome!

Though technically incorrect I just had to be fair for Rad's sake!

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

@TropicalFruitGirl26  I like your trade break down....I just have a few nagging questions. While I know where Stevie Y is with this trade, he spent a valuable asset in attempt to go further in the playoffs. I'm questioning this a bit...I don't think they have the team to win it all this year (could happen just unlikely) so why spend a 1st rounder....it's not just a 1st rounder, it's a 1st rounder in one of the best drafts ever. Why not just sit tight and select a player that is better than Coburn in the draft? While Coburn has a ton of NHL playoffs experience...he does have the propensity for very costly brain farts. He contributes little to zero offense and has not a hint of a mean streak for such a big player. I just think the Bolts could have gotten a better player for their 1st round pick....*especially* since they might not re-sign him, so basically he's a one year rental with 2 playoff appearances sandwiched inbetween....that is not a good return. Of course, the one area where Coburn will and should help is the transition game, he can lug the puck up ice if there is not to much pressure on him. The big thing for me is the Bolts inexperience in the nets for the playoffs. There is documented proof that inexperienced goalies can win it all, but it RARELY happens. Usually you need a few playoffs years behind you to learn how to win the big games....and that is true especially for goalies.

 

 From a Flyers perspective, the 20ish pick and Gudas is a very nice return for what they gave up. I have no doubt in my mind that Gudas will instantly become one of the most beloved Flyers D-men ever. He's a true warrior who relishes the chance to lay a vicious hit....he's basically a bit faster and much nastier version of Grossmann. Flyer fans are gonna LOVE this guy!! The draft pick is gonna be nice, a young LW like Bittner, or young d-man will be welcome after the Flyers select #7....maybe, just maybe the Flyers like Blackwood from Barrie and make him the top goalie selected with the Bolts pick...gonna be fun to see which way they go with this wildcard pick!!

 

Well, @jammer2 , I mulled over some of your points and came up with this:

 

Obviously, I don't know what Steve Yzerman was thinking.

Only he and the people he confides with know for sure....plus, he is a very good NHL GM, and I am just a fan on a message board.

 

That said, I still think it was a case of Stevie Y taking a gamble to get a player now (Coburn) who could help the team in this year's run, as opposed to NOT having the services of a still young and overall unproven in the playoffs type player in Radko Gudas......and if giving up a pick in the 1st round was the way to get him, then so be it.

 

Again, Bolts dealt from a position of strength.

Bolts dealt Brett Connolly away to Boston and acquired 2nd rounder from them as well as a 2nd rounder for the 2016 draft.

And the Bolts didn't leave themselves completely out of the 1st round either....let's not forget they hold the Rangers' 1st rounder they got for dealing Marty St. Louis that way.

 

So, as you can see, even though TB gave up THEIR 1st rounder, they still hold one from the Rangers and give or take, the actual pick from NY or TB shouldn't be that far apart, obviously depending on how each club does......as well as holding decent picks from the Bruins.

 

Yzerman is developing a reputation as a guy who seems to 'buy' talent and paying with picks, while still maintaining some for his own club's use.

I can't remember the details, but I believe Yzerman did the same thing when he needed goalie help....used picks to upgrade from Mathieu Garon and Dwayne Roloson to what eventually became Lindback and Bishop.

 

Some thought he was crazy then, but he was crazy like a fox.

 

Could Stevie Y gotten a better deal for his 1st round pick?

Maybe.

But how many teams were as willing to quickly part with a veteran D-man that the Lightning liked more than the Flyers?

Probably not too many.

 

This deal could have been based on timing as well.

Yandle, Petry...those guys were rumored to be on Yzerman's radar.

For whatever reason, Yzerman chose not to go that route.

I would have to do the research to see if what Yzerman gave the Flyers would have been enough to land either Yandle or Petry.....if not, then that could have been it.....Yzerman would not give up a current rosters player (if that was what Arz or Edm wanted) in order to acquire their D-man.

 

Meanwhile, Philly was happy to just get rid of Coburn and take the pick.

And of the three D-men it appears the Flyers were wanting to get rid of the most (Grossmann, MacDonald, Coburn), Braydon seemed to fit what the Bolts needed best.

 

Again, this is all speculation on my part.

Stevie Y doesn't have me on speed dial 

 

But given his track record, I do trust in Yzerman.

And hey, even if this deal wasn't one of his best, and it turns out to be a bottom dwelling type deal for him, oh well....even the best are subject to gaffes.

 

Other than seeing Radko Gudas wearing orange n black next season, I am not too bothered by Yzerman's deal with the Flyers here. 

[radoran]

@radoran  I know the point you are trying to make, but because of this very deep draft, I think the Bolts could have done better than Coburn...just my opinion.

 

I think overall you are right, but in terms of this year and next year, I don't think the Bolts felt the same way.

 

Looking back from 2000-2010 there really isn't a year in which there aren't total busts in the 20-30 range and, again, generally half of them don't even play a full season in the league.

 

I think they could get a nice, serviceable player in that range. From the Bolts' standpoint, they got an allegedly serviceable player with playoff experience.

 

If they go out in the first round, all bets are off. But Stevie Y isn't down there strategizing to go out in the first round.

[FD19372]

Incomplete.

[Lindbergh31]

@ TropicalFruitGirl26

 

Your assessment on Yzerman is probably correct, he learned from Ken Holland and Stevie Y has made some good trades since he's been a GM. He decided to take a chance on Coburn and is hoping the Bolts 1st rounder will be after the Rangers one that TB owns. Let's just hope the Bolts can finish off the Habs on Tuesday and shut up those annoying fans.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

@ TropicalFruitGirl26

 

Your assessment on Yzerman is probably correct, he learned from Ken Holland and Stevie Y has made some good trades since he's been a GM. He decided to take a chance on Coburn and is hoping the Bolts 1st rounder will be after the Rangers one that TB owns. Let's just hope the Bolts can finish off the Habs on Tuesday and shut up those annoying fans.

 

Well, @Lindbergh31 , not only taking the chance that Coburn will help the Bolts win now, but Braydon also makes a great 'stop gap' defender (he does have that one more year left on his contract), while the Bolts younger D-men in the AHL mature some more.

 

Tampa Bay went from having NO real D-men of consequence in the AHL to having a few that are bumping out pylons at the NHL level given enough time.

I wouldn't have minded Radko Gudas staying a Bolt, but skill wise, the Bolts do have quite a few that surpass him...though none yet have his mean streak and blue line shot.

 

Thus Coburn makes an excellent year and a half soldier with his combination of NHL experience, size, coverage, and a bit of meanness himself while the Bolts find a guy to fully replace him after next season.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Well, @Lindbergh31 , not only taking the chance that Coburn will help the Bolts win now, but Braydon also makes a great 'stop gap' defender (he does have that one more year left on his contract), while the Bolts younger D-men in the AHL mature some more.

 

Tampa Bay went from having NO real D-men of consequence in the AHL to having a few that are bumping out pylons at the NHL level given enough time.

I wouldn't have minded Radko Gudas staying a Bolt, but skill wise, the Bolts do have quite a few that surpass him...though none yet have his mean streak and blue line shot.

 

Thus Coburn makes an excellent year and a half soldier with his combination of NHL experience, size, coverage, and a bit of meanness himself while the Bolts find a guy to fully replace him after next season.

Durrr?

 

Since when has Coburn been using his size and meanness? lol

I think he has been playing well yes. haha. This just caught me off guard

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Durrr?

 

Since when has Coburn been using his size and meanness? lol

I think he has been playing well yes. haha. This just caught me off guard

 

Absolutely.

He actually has to a degree.

I said a "bit of meaness"...you can't question the size...he IS a big man.

 

And those bodies of the Red Wings and Habs in the offensive zone haven't been falling down by themselves.

Look, I realize Coburn is no Gudas or Kronwall when it comes to physical play, but in the instances he has used his size and physical play, it has served to remove Det and Mon players out of plays....sometimes even to the point of borderline interference.

Some he gets called on, some he skates away with the opposing players squarely on his arse.

 

So far, I'd say Steve Yzerman has gotten EXACTLY what he has wanted out of Braydon Coburn....with all the good n bad that go with it.

Only thing left for the Lightning is to actually finish off the Habs then see how useful he can be against very physical Washington or NY Rangers teams.

 

I still prefer an Anton Stralman, Jason Garrison, or Andrej Sustr over Coburn as pure defenders (and when those guys WANT to, they can play pretty physical as well), but when Coburn decides he wants to ratchet up the intensity, he CAN do it better than any of those three.