mojo1917 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, radoran said: Maybe it wasn't the coach's fault that the team played totally flat with no emotion. Maybe these players just aren't as good as their point totals and press clippings. I don't think the Flyers have enough good players anymore. There is a lot of detritus on the roster. Not so in Nashville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, radoran said: You know, it's interesting to me that Laviolette got back to the Finals - and could be poised to do so again - but the Flyers haven't been out of the first round. Never should have fired Laviolette. I know he supposedly has a short shelf life, but I thought he was a good coach and if Holmgren were able to get him better players (or avoid saddling him with some players), they could have been more effective. Even if Richards and Carter decided not to dock at dry island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, vis said: Like you, I thought Hakstol did a good job at times during the season with a roster lacking in talent and having a number of young players. I think he got a good deal out of them at times. I also like that he didn't panic and continued to show faith in his players. By all accounts, this meant a lot to the players and helped them pull through the difficult times. However, it was evident during the season, and maybe moreso in these playoffs, that he does not have a sense of the game at times and his personnel. Usage of certain players is questionable at times and seems to lack and sort of "command" behind the bench. I get that some would call it stoic. But there is a time and place for being more assertive and I have yet to see that. And the team reflects his unassertiveness, which is a problem. this is a great take vis, with regard to Hakstol more than one thing is true. He was the guy that put 11 with 14 and 28, yay ! He is also the guy that replaced 11 with 12 for the matchup vs the defending champs. huh? It would be an easy call if he made more decisions like the first one and less like the second. But it seems as though for every good thing he does...shows faith in 19. He does something confounding, 8 manning the popcorn machine. He needs more "wins" imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: I don't think the Flyers have enough good players anymore. There is a lot of detritus on the roster. Not so in Nashville. When I see $16.5M in two players produce three points in four games, I wonder just how much detrius there is. I get that teams can shut down one line teams in the playoffs, but a true "Hart trophy candidate" simply has to do better than we've seen in this series. And I don't see the answer to $16.5M in unproductive playoff performers to be "trade Simmonds". Don't get me wrong - I'd trade him for the right deal, but that doesn't make these two playoff boat anchors necessarily better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 @radoran @vis I think signing VLC had a significantly negative effect on Pete's interest level in the team. He coaches his guys to play a certain way, and the GM tied up the roster by signing the antithesis of a Laviolette style player. It was like "you want us to play this style, but saddle me with this guy?" . It looked like the he spent the summer at Delaware Park, because that was better use of his time than figuring out where to play the 5 million dollar pylon. I remember trying so hard to find a silver lining in that signing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Just now, radoran said: When I see $16.5M in two players produce three points in five games, I wonder just how much detrius there is. I get that teams can shut down one line teams in the playoffs, but a true "Hart trophy candidate" simply has to do better than we've seen in this series. I am unwilling to throw a 100 point player under the bus, because he's missed some shots. "Giroux didn't show up " is too easy and I think a lazy take. He carried the stinkin' team all year, yes, he's the problem. The Pens are loading up vs his line, he's out vs Crosby who is the best player in the league, he's out against the top D pairing too, and the coach puts Raffl opposite him? when the line of 11, 14 and 28 was one of the best in the league ? The Pens have committed to shutting 28 down, and then his own coach inexplicably helps by taking away a player who requires attention as well. I can't put the beat down on Giroux not being good enough. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: He was the guy that put 11 with 14 and 28, yay ! He is also the guy that replaced 11 with 12 for the matchup vs the defending champs. huh? It would be an easy call if he made more decisions like the first one and less like the second. But it seems as though for every good thing he does...shows faith in 19. He does something confounding, 8 manning the popcorn machine. He needs more "wins" imo. Agree. He deserves a lot of credit for moving Giroux to wing and putting him with Couturier. He also gets credit for putting Konency on that line. But, I will never understand why he thought Raffl would be a better fit and moving Konecny to Filppula's line would be beneficial. Also, his focus on Manning and continued pairing of he and Gudas is head scratching. Let's not even get into how he rode Elliott to the point he needed surgery. Hextall shares some blame in that, but Hakstol sealed his fate. Above all else, I just wonder how much command he has over the game and players. I look at Sullivan, DeBoer, Babcock, Laviolette, Quenneville, Gallant - these are guys that are clearly in control of the team and read the game. I know they are among the best in the league, but Hakstol seems so far from that group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 42 minutes ago, murraycraven said: well, I think you have a fair point. I felt a hell of a lot better with Lavy behind the bench than "one of the brightest hockey minds" in Berube and Hak... The next coach MUST have a good deal of successful NHL experience. I don't care what they have to pay him. Open the vault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 1 hour ago, vis said: Even if Richards and Carter decided not to dock at dry island. They fired Laviolette two years after Crater and Richards left... As for Lavvy's shelf life, he is in this fourth season at Nashville and they went: Lost in first round Lost in second round Cup Finals Currently the division winner and Finals contender Meanwhile the Flyers have gone: Missed playoffs Lost first round Missed playoffs Losing first round Remember when losing to the Cup Finalist Rangers in 13-14 was a "good sign"? Ah, good times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 20 minutes ago, FD19372 said: The next coach MUST have a good deal of successful NHL experience. I don't care what they have to pay him. Open the vault. It is tough to blame the coach when your goalies are touting a sub .860 save percentage/you are stuck with d-men who could not even break the bottom pair on most teams/you are basically icing 2 lines with skills and 2 lines of ham and eggers. I would like to see him with a chance without having to put MacDud/Manning/Gudas( although I like his hits, his play has severely deteriorated as of late)/Lehtera/Weise/Weal/Read/and even Filpulla at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Had to share - lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: I am unwilling to throw a 100 point player under the bus, because he's missed some shots. "Giroux didn't show up " is too easy and I think a lazy take. He carried the stinkin' team all year, yes, he's the problem. I didn't throw him under the bus, he leapt under it. TO be clear he's not "THE problem" but he is certainly "A problem". This series has been embarrassing on every level and his posturing after Game 2 looks feeble after getting blown out in back to back home games. Great he had 100 points and carried the team. Where? A first round trouncing that he doesn't even have a goal scored? Yay. #winning I was happy to see him break out this year. He had a career season being put back at his natural position. But he's done nothing in the postseason. Nothing. And it's not just him - Voracek's most notable contribution this series has been letting Malkin go around him like the Russian tanks into Prague in 1968. You can't win with a $16.5M void in the postseason. Daniel Sedin had 104 points for the Canucks in 10-11. He then had 20 in 25 playoff games as they went to the Final. And he never broke 80 again in his career and played 12 more playoff games in seven seasons. I hope they get it together. But as it is, they've got to prove they're more than regular season points machines against the Islanders of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, radoran said: Great he had 100 points and carried the team. Where? A first round trouncing that he doesn't even have a goal scored? Yay. #winning Where ? 98 points and 3rd place in perhaps the most competitive division in the league. A 10 point improvement over the year before, the playoffs, the tournament they missed last year. I know you remember last year we were hoping for a good bounce from the ping pong ball. Losing sucks, not making the playoffs in a league where half the teams do....sucks. This season has been an incremental step forward led by Giroux even if he was "loading up on the Islanders". Giroux isn't a player of Crosby's caliber, but he is damn good. He is a legitimate Hart Trophy candidate. He is still almost a point a game player in the playoffs. This in spite of his "boat anchor" presence this year. The Pens have more superstars, better depth, a better goalie, more experience. They are winning this series because of those reasons, not the "VeeGees suck". They don't. 12 minutes ago, radoran said: And it's not just him - Voracek's most notable contribution this series has been letting Malkin go around him like the Russian tanks into Prague in 1968. This is funny, right here. Truly though, I don't know where you're going with your line of reasoning. I know you're not on the tank band wagon. So a guy got a little surly with the press bfd. Your presence in this thread feels super contrarian almost nihilistic with the tone you've taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 2 hours ago, radoran said: How about $5M? Oh, well, that changes everything, if course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 38 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: The Pens have more superstars, better depth, a better goalie, more experience. They are winning this series because of those reasons, not the "VeeGees suck". They don't. Agree with this - the lack of depth is being exposed. But, I also think it is fair to criticize the VeeGees in this series. Again, the "Core" has disappeared and if you are an 8M + player you have to find ways to contribute. That is the way the league works - pay to perform and they have at least been consistent this series at under-performing. Does bringing in better talent to boost the depth help? Most likely but right now they are really not playing well. Great players get criticized for their play and they are under the microscope in the playoffs. This is what they are paid so handsomely for - I am sure Cap fans have been saying this forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 1 hour ago, murraycraven said: But, I also think it is fair to criticize the VeeGees in this series. Again, the "Core" has disappeared and if you are an 8M + player you have to find ways to contribute. That is the way the league works - pay to perform and they have at least been consistent this series at under-performing. this is fair and i get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 This team is a goaltender, 3 defensemen and 3 good wingers away from being good...oh yeah, and a coach. Simmonds and Voracek should be traded, we can get a similar return like we did when we traded Carter and Riichards . We should walk away with two first rounders and three or four good young players. That way we can have more depth and youth since we are two or three years away from contention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 2 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Truly though, I don't know where you're going with your line of reasoning. I know you're not on the tank band wagon. So a guy got a little surly with the press bfd. Your presence in this thread feels super contrarian almost nihilistic with the tone you've taken. My line of reasoning is that the two of them need to actually produce in the playoffs or all the regular season success in the world doesn't matter. See: Capitals, Washington. Are there other problems? Of course there are. And the topic of the thread is one of them. And the goaltending. And the young defense. And the lack of playoff experience. And the lack of support from the bottom 6. So, aside from that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln? Are there positives? Yes. Provorov. Patrick. Konecny. Couturier. And I still like Ghost, even with his -7. But what's most worrisome is that - as has been noted by many others in this thread - the team just rolled over and played dead. In the playoffs. At home. Against a heated rival. Dead. I may just get a little nihilistic about the squad when they do that. And they only have problems in coaching, goaltending, defense, experience and depth. Is some of that on the coach? Yes, it is. Is some of that on the players as a whole? Yes, it is. Is some of that on the Captain? In my mind, it is. YMMV Because, let's face it, we don't give that benefit of the doubt to Alexander Ovechkin when his teams flame out in the playoffs and he's at least got 29 points in his 39 playoff games over three years and criticized for lack of production and results. I think criticizing three points in ten playoff games over three years is fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 25 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: This team is a goaltender, 3 defensemen and 3 good wingers away from being good...oh yeah, and a coach. But, aside from that, they're in great shape! 26 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: Simmonds and Voracek should be traded, we can get a similar return like we did when we traded Carter and Riichards I'm with you on this to a point. And the point is this: Since they traded Carter and Richards they have five playoff rounds in seven years. I don't think this "core" is going to get them there at this point and setting a new "core" is waiting the 3-5 years we've spent the last 3-5 years waiting. Talk about nihilistic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Do I think Hakstol will be fired after this season? No. Do I think he's on a shorter leash? Yes. My gut says a poor start to '18-'19 or failure to win a playoff series and he will be relieved of duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 5 hours ago, murraycraven said: that is wonderful and all but none of this actually means Hak should not be fired. Sorry, if Filp is at 1C tonight and Sanheim is in the rafters while Manning and Gudas are paired together he deserves to be fired. Yes i totally agree. Lucky me i won't be able to watch i will working from 7pm-7am. Who starts in net??? Who gets yanked first tonight?? Go Flyers!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 5 hours ago, mojo1917 said: "you want us to play this style, but saddle me with this guy?" You mean what is happening with Lehtera right now??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sekkes85 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 We should probably dress 3 goalies tonight. Start off with Elliott (should be Neuvirth), then pull him after 3 or so bad goals allowed. Let Neuvirth come in and either play amazing but suffers an injury or will let in 3 or 4 more goals and then pull him for Mrazek. Mrazek will be Mrazek. Pens win 12-1 (Flyers score when a Penguin hits a teammate's skate and it bounces in with an empty net from a pending PP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 4 hours ago, radoran said: "A problem". I have to agree....i mean no one that i know of is saying to him hey Giroux don't go out and duplicate "the shift" again....so why don't we see that type of game from him??? It is the playoffs by God....WTF is he waiting for??? Come out and set the goddamn tone!!!!! You're the Captain stop telling the guys what you want from them go out and SHOW US ALL!!!!!!!!!! JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!! PLAY WITH SOME HEART AND ENERGY AND THE TEAM WILL FOLLOW!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 3 hours ago, ruxpin said: Oh, well, that changes everything, if course! At least you corrected yourself!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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