Flyers Need a Coaching Change

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

For the record, I think we have a talent problem more than a coaching one.  That said, it's hard to argue with the numbers, and our defense and PK are awful.  If there is accountability, it needs to start somewhere.  I thought this was a good piece:

 

The Flyers need a coaching change - Broad Street Hockey

 

I would not want to be in CF's shoes.  But he needs to do something.  His squad is coming unglued. 

[Fizz]

20 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

For the record, I think we have a talent problem more than a coaching one.  That said, it's hard to argue with the numbers, and our defense and PK are awful.  If there is accountability, it needs to start somewhere.  I thought this was a good piece:

 

The Flyers need a coaching change - Broad Street Hockey

 

I would not want to be in CF's shoes.  But he needs to do something.  His squad is coming unglued. 

I agree we need a coaching change, but I disagree about the talent on this team. When they play as a team and with hart they are pretty damn good. The problem is 100% coaching, there is no game plan at all no set plays to break out of your own end or power plays absolutely no motivation. AV and his assistants are crap and need to be fired. 

[CoachX]

4 minutes ago, Fizz said:

I agree we need a coaching change, but I disagree about the talent on this team. When they play as a team and with hart they are pretty damn good. The problem is 100% coaching, there is no game plan at all no set plays to break out of your own end or power plays absolutely no motivation. AV and his assistants are crap and need to be fired. 

Disagree with all this

 

Whenever a Flyer team underachieves, its blamed on the coach. 

[Howie58]

I was thinking about this a lot earlier today.  We've had an attack head coach--Laviolette. We had a "structure"/D-first coach with Hakstol.  Now we have forecheck-defend the neutral zone coach.  My take is that we haven't changed too much one way or the other.  We seem to be several steps slower than our opposition.  We win faceoffs--but don't do much with them.  Farabee may be a sniper....shoot, it's taken awhile to get one.  Morin and Rubstov are probable busts among the first rounders.  Our D was supposed to be a strength, right?  The horror, the horror:

 

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=col+kurtz+the+horror&type=E211US0G0#id=3&vid=30b64856988852704c12985873234eb2&action=view

 

[pilldoc]

@Howie58

 

Always love the thought provoking posts you create.  I read the article you posted/cited, though I get the premise of said article, I disagree with the conclusion.

 

The Flyers are now on coach number 5 and GM number 3 during the Coots Jake and G era. They are good players, but there plenty of good players who don’t win. The 9-0 loss shouldn’t be the concern, blowouts like that happen once in a while, however, the win against the Islanders should be what is concerning. The problem  as I see it is that sometimes this team shows up and sometimes they doesn’t.  When they don’t they just don’t seem to care other than the standard obligatory soundbite after the game.  It has been like this for years.

 

At this point in their careers, G and Jake simply are not good enough anymore and their collective contracts hinder this team.  I am not arguing a few games ago when G actually put this team on his back and will them to victory.  Remember that series years ago against the Pens when Giroux was dominant, physical, and emotionally engaged. Where in the hell did that guy go?

 

IMO he has changed his game and shut down emotionally.  Now to be fair we are not privy to what is said inside the locker-room. My question is why?  A captain is supposed to lead and set an example, and yet Giroux plays the game, IMHO, like he’s part of the walking dead nowadays.

 

Getting off topic here.  I don't want AV fired, HOWEVER, there has to be accountability with special teams coaching.  They are dreadful is putting it mildly. They were ranked 3rd league wide for the season in 14-15 but are average since. Sometimes a bit below sometimes a bit above. We confuse the bit above average times with having a dominant PP because when compared to the below average times they seem great. 

 

Yeo’s job is defense and penalty kill. But at this point fire them both. Terrien seems to have no idea how to construct the power play as the constantly shifting units indicate. Yeo had them playing well last hear, but you can’t over look regressions for every one of their young defensemen.

 

I''m totally on board if you want to can them but not AV.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by pilldoc

[pilldoc]

11 minutes ago, Fizz said:

When they play as a team and with hart they are pretty damn good.

 

Then there is a total disconnect because we have seen this cycle for the past several years.  The inconsistency is maddening.  At what point MUST the finger be pointed back at the players.  If this sounds like a broken record it is because it is a broken record. 

 

Welcome to the Forum!

[Howie58]

5 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

I''m totally on board if you want to can them but not AV.

Greetings and thanks for the shout-out...the board rocks.

 

I commented last week that the Assistant Coaches seemed to be logical "targets."  I think AV knows his stuff.  Somehow, this collection of talent is less than the sum and G,V are not cost-effective.  As I've said before, G's contract ends next year, and it will be interesting to see how the team handles a re-sign if that is their mutual decision.  

[pilldoc]

7 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Whenever a Flyer team underachieves, its blamed on the coach. 

 

Exactly!  I said the same thing in the above posts.  The core of G / Jake / and Coots are on coach #5 and GM #3.  At what point do we finally say this is a players problems and it starts with the Captain.  It seems like eon's ago from "the shift" vs the Pens.  Again we are not privy to locker-room conversations so we don't know what is or is not said.   However what we have witnessed is a very lazy team at times and that is constant despite numerous coaching changes.  The only constant variable that remains is the players themselves.

[Mad Dog]

I used to think that with this team, there is a never-ending, perennial issue of coach blaming, and that there is always going to be a scapegoat behind the bench, but not the players.  But I think you may be on to something.  And for the record, I keep AV in high esteem.  I think he is a terrific coach.  The only theory I have - and this is nothing but theory - is that the team just stopped responding to him.  And if that's the case, this is an unsolvable situation and the only way to repair it is to can the coach.  

 

That said, my suspicion is AV is not going anywhere in the next year or so...

Edited March 21, 2021 by Mad Dog

[RonJeremy]

24 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

Exactly!  I said the same thing in the above posts.  The core of G / Jake / and Coots are on coach #5 and GM #3.  At what point do we finally say this is a players problems and it starts with the Captain.  It seems like eon's ago from "the shift" vs the Pens.  Again we are not privy to locker-room conversations so we don't know what is or is not said.   However what we have witnessed is a very lazy team at times and that is constant despite numerous coaching changes.  The only constant variable that remains is the players themselves.

We are rotten to the core...that is the common denominator. Jake and G are not leaders, that is the bottom line.

[Fizz]

44 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Disagree with all this

 

Whenever a Flyer team underachieves, its blamed on the coach. 

See that's where we disagree, AV is a decent coach when he has a veteran group and an established all star goalie.

He had both when he had success in Vancouver and NY. he has neither in Philly and refuses to change his coaching ideologies and style to adapt to a very young and raw team. Yes ye are lacking in a couple key areas mainly defense.

But just watch how many times the forwards prematurely leave the defensive zone and the defense is not mature enough to make the right play. In my mind that is 100% on the coaches. AV is not going to change his style to fit the team and the team cannot play his style and win. Hart will be a great NHL goalie in time but right now he is no Luongo or Lundqvist in their prime and that is what AV needs in his system an all star goalie that can keep a sloppy team in the game.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this

But hey we are still Flyer Fans.....cheers 

[FD19372]

I'm tired of making the coach the fall guy. When is it on the players in Club Med Philadelphia, that are overpaid by the HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE people running the front office? The players aren't good enough, and if for NO OTHER REASON than helping Carter Hart, Fletcher needs to make a move for a dman or two. NOW. They also need more physical, and more talented forwards. The organization has been sitting on its collective hands, since Ed Snider passed away.

Edited March 22, 2021 by FD19372

[CoachX]

3 hours ago, Fizz said:

See that's where we disagree, AV is a decent coach when he has a veteran group and an established all star goalie.

He had both when he had success in Vancouver and NY. he has neither in Philly and refuses to change his coaching ideologies and style to adapt to a very young and raw team. Yes ye are lacking in a couple key areas mainly defense.

But just watch how many times the forwards prematurely leave the defensive zone and the defense is not mature enough to make the right play. In my mind that is 100% on the coaches. AV is not going to change his style to fit the team and the team cannot play his style and win. Hart will be a great NHL goalie in time but right now he is no Luongo or Lundqvist in their prime and that is what AV needs in his system an all star goalie that can keep a sloppy team in the game.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this

But hey we are still Flyer Fans.....cheers 

This is not a "young, raw" team. This is a team that was the hottest in the league a year ago, prior to the covid debacle. They looked great going into the playoffs and got exposed. The players got exposed, not the coach. They got out skated and got beat down because they physically were outmatched.  That is not a coaching issue

 

TK, Giroux, Jake, JVR, were all on offensive hiatus, and still havent returned (jvr has). Hell, Laughton was our number one offensive weapon. Then Nisky bolts and the wheels come completely off. I see mental issues, lack of commitment to their individual jobs, laziness and no heart. In 2 straight games they have been beaten to a pulp, embarrassed on tv and the only guy who stepped up was Lindblom. And to that, the rest of the team did nothing to respond. Hell, TK even said so in the news

 

No, this is not a HEAD COACH issue. This is a player issue

[CoachX]

4 hours ago, pilldoc said:

@Howie58

 

Always love the thought provoking posts you create.  I read the article you posted/cited, though I get the premise of said article, I disagree with the conclusion.

 

The Flyers are now on coach number 5 and GM number 3 during the Coots Jake and G era. They are good players, but there plenty of good players who don’t win. The 9-0 loss shouldn’t be the concern, blowouts like that happen once in a while, however, the win against the Islanders should be what is concerning. The problem  as I see it is that sometimes this team shows up and sometimes they doesn’t.  When they don’t they just don’t seem to care other than the standard obligatory soundbite after the game.  It has been like this for years.

 

At this point in their careers, G and Jake simply are not good enough anymore and their collective contracts hinder this team.  I am not arguing a few games ago when G actually put this team on his back and will them to victory.  Remember that series years ago against the Pens when Giroux was dominant, physical, and emotionally engaged. Where in the hell did that guy go?

 

IMO he has changed his game and shut down emotionally.  Now to be fair we are not privy to what is said inside the locker-room. My question is why?  A captain is supposed to lead and set an example, and yet Giroux plays the game, IMHO, like he’s part of the walking dead nowadays.

 

Getting off topic here.  I don't want AV fired, HOWEVER, there has to be accountability with special teams coaching.  They are dreadful is putting it mildly. They were ranked 3rd league wide for the season in 14-15 but are average since. Sometimes a bit below sometimes a bit above. We confuse the bit above average times with having a dominant PP because when compared to the below average times they seem great. 

 

Yeo’s job is defense and penalty kill. But at this point fire them both. Terrien seems to have no idea how to construct the power play as the constantly shifting units indicate. Yeo had them playing well last hear, but you can’t over look regressions for every one of their young defensemen.

 

I''m totally on board if you want to can them but not AV.

 

 

What a great post

 

Bravo

[CoachX]

4 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

I used to think that with this team, there is a never-ending, perennial issue of coach blaming, and that there is always going to be a scapegoat behind the bench, but not the players.  But I think you may be on to something.  And for the record, I keep AV in high esteem.  I think he is a terrific coach.  The only theory I have - and this is nothing but theory - is that the team just stopped responding to him.  And if that's the case, this is an unsolvable situation and the only way to repair it is to can the coach.  

 

That said, my suspicion is AV is not going anywhere in the next year or so...

Wanna repair it? Convince Giroux to go to another team and find some way to unload Vora-i refuse to- check

 

Watch TK wake the "f" up, and others will fall in line knowing their jobs arent safe and their ass is on the line

[Fizz]

30 minutes ago, CoachX said:

This is not a "young, raw" team. This is a team that was the hottest in the league a year ago, prior to the covid debacle. They looked great going into the playoffs and got exposed. The players got exposed, not the coach. They got out skated and got beat down because they physically were outmatched.  That is not a coaching issue

 

TK, Giroux, Jake, JVR, were all on offensive hiatus, and still havent returned (jvr has). Hell, Laughton was our number one offensive weapon. Then Nisky bolts and the wheels come completely off. I see mental issues, lack of commitment to their individual jobs, laziness and no heart. In 2 straight games they have been beaten to a pulp, embarrassed on tv and the only guy who stepped up was Lindblom. And to that, the rest of the team did nothing to respond. Hell, TK even said so in the news

 

No, this is not a HEAD COACH issue. This is a player issue

Not at all true. We got beat in the playoffs when we started playing the same team night in and night out. AV refused to make a game plan that could adapt. Proof of this is this year. We started hot but as soon as other team's figured out the game plan we were exposed and AV refuses to change the style of play. If I am so wrong why did we crap the bed in the playoffs when we were the hottest team going in? Same team same players vastly different results.

Hey I get you are obviously an AV fan, but face it he is a ****** coach when it comes to playing the same team multiple times in short periods.

[ruxpin]

48 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Not at all true. We got beat in the playoffs when we started playing the same team night in and night out. AV refused to make a game plan that could adapt. Proof of this is this year. We started hot but as soon as other team's figured out the game plan we were exposed and AV refuses to change the style of play. If I am so wrong why did we crap the bed in the playoffs when we were the hottest team going in? Same team same players vastly different results.

Hey I get you are obviously an AV fan, but face it he is a ****** coach when it comes to playing the same team multiple times in short periods.

 

When you frame it in this way, you may well have a point.  Interesting, for sure.

[OccamsRazor]

6 hours ago, CoachX said:

This is not a "young, raw" team. This is a team that was the hottest in the league a year ago, prior to the covid debacle. They looked great going into the playoffs and got exposed. The players got exposed, not the coach. They got out skated and got beat down because they physically were outmatched.  That is not a coaching issue

 

TK, Giroux, Jake, JVR, were all on offensive hiatus, and still havent returned (jvr has). Hell, Laughton was our number one offensive weapon. Then Nisky bolts and the wheels come completely off. I see mental issues, lack of commitment to their individual jobs, laziness and no heart. In 2 straight games they have been beaten to a pulp, embarrassed on tv and the only guy who stepped up was Lindblom. And to that, the rest of the team did nothing to respond. Hell, TK even said so in the news

 

No, this is not a HEAD COACH issue. This is a player issue

 

That might the best post I have ever read by you.

 

Great job.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

AV coached up the Canucks got them to the finals.

 

AV coached up the Rangers got them to the finals.

 

Now all of a sudden he gets to Philly and now he is the problem.

 

Not buying that sorry no f**king way.

 

So finally after going through:

 

Lavy (finals appearance)

Berube (won Cup after he left)

Hakstol (a coach who was good with kids)

Gordon (coached a lot of the kids)

AV (gets first playoff series win in 8 years)

 

It had to be the coaches when those guys couldn't get anything from these bums.

 

Not buying it.

 

For once can we blame the underachieving millionaires on the roster?

 

The core have basically tainted the kids is what has happened.

 

The cancer wasn't removed and now it has spread...and now we want to blame the doctor. SMFH.

 

It is time for Chuckles to roll up his sleeves and get to work...

 

[tucson83]

8 hours ago, Fizz said:

Not at all true. We got beat in the playoffs when we started playing the same team night in and night out. AV refused to make a game plan that could adapt. Proof of this is this year. We started hot but as soon as other team's figured out the game plan we were exposed and AV refuses to change the style of play. If I am so wrong why did we crap the bed in the playoffs when we were the hottest team going in? Same team same players vastly different results.

Hey I get you are obviously an AV fan, but face it he is a ****** coach when it comes to playing the same team multiple times in short periods.

so if av is  a bad coach, why is hakstol doing better as an assistant with toronto? why did berube win his first stanley cup with st.louis? i mean that one should have ended the debate. lavy talking a less talented nashville team to playoffs every year and making it the finals?

 

if you keep saying it's the coaches it's because you are desperate for cup and in serious denial because you thought everything hextall drafted was gold which is really crazy because they are such thing as misses in the draft. players arent good that's fact besides fabby.

 

if the coaching was a problem, berube would still be here and we would be winning cups.

 

you dont wait until the core hits their middle 30s and expect a different outcome, their talent level is nothing like sid and ovi, they dont show up most games, most of the time it's jvr and fabby like how you can you win anything like that?

Edited March 22, 2021 by tucson83

[RonJeremy]

8 hours ago, Fizz said:

Not at all true. We got beat in the playoffs when we started playing the same team night in and night out. AV refused to make a game plan that could adapt. Proof of this is this year. We started hot but as soon as other team's figured out the game plan we were exposed and AV refuses to change the style of play. If I am so wrong why did we crap the bed in the playoffs when we were the hottest team going in? Same team same players vastly different results.

Hey I get you are obviously an AV fan, but face it he is a ****** coach when it comes to playing the same team multiple times in short periods.

Sometimes you can't change the teams style of play when the players you have are one dimensional and don't have enough talent to overcome.  Thats why having a balanced team is so important.  That way you can go up against any team and adapt,  instead of praying that you so draw a certain team in the playoffs because you don't match up. The Flyers are small, not all that fast and not physical at all, so we have real problems. 

[pilldoc]

20 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

The Flyers are small, not all that fast and not physical at all, so we have real problems. 

 

That really is the crux of the problem and adding in that when it comes to game time, sometimes this team shows up and sometimes they doesn’t.  

 

We all saw what happened with this team vs. the Habs last year.  We barely won that series.  That team skated circles around us and it came to fruition when they played the Isles in the next series.  Throw out the games vs. the Bruins / Caps / Tampa.  Everyone was getting used to the Covid restrictions.  

 

I agree, it is not a coaching problem.  It is a players heart problem and GM(s) problem in the way this team was assembled over the years.

[tucson83]

31 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Sometimes you can't change the teams style of play when the players you have are one dimensional and don't have enough talent to overcome.  Thats why having a balanced team is so important.  That way you can go up against any team and adapt,  instead of praying that you so draw a certain team in the playoffs because you don't match up. The Flyers are small, not all that fast and not physical at all, so we have real problems. 

this is what fletch is trying to change, you can see the players he drafted has skill and can skate which alot players that hextall drafted are the complete opposite, cant skate and can only play defense, like you cant win like that.

 

you see it in alot of the games, every team that kills us is outskating us every time, that's a talent issue not a coaching issue. the whole team is slow.

[RonJeremy]

42 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

this is what fletch is trying to change, you can see the players he drafted has skill and can skate which alot players that hextall drafted are the complete opposite, cant skate and can only play defense, like you cant win like that.

 

you see it in alot of the games, every team that kills us is outskating us every time, that's a talent issue not a coaching issue. the whole team is slow.

Yes , we sure do lack in speed,  and

we lack in size on the wings. Yeah JVR and Jake have size but they are not physical in the least. NAK is the only guy taking the body as well as dumb penalties. I’m glad we have some big physical scorers like Allison, Wisdom, Ratcliffe and Foerester. They have a shoot first mentality and are big enough to win some battles on the boards, which is where the Islanders killed us, they also killed us with speed , particularly the Barzal line.  So hopefully guys like Brink , Frost and Desoyners help there.
 

Unfortunately maybe one or two of these guys can make the team next year, so  once again, we are still a few years away. One big mistake management made is on defense where having swift skating puck movers is great ,as long as you are dominating the puck possession time, but if you are up against a real good team , and they are in your zone a lot,  then you are gonna need some positionally  sound guys with some size , who can actually play defense, clear rebounds and actually prevent goals. Meyers and Sanheim should each be paired with a veteran stay at home defenseman to help their game develop, neither is ready for first pairing duties.

 

This is a pivotal season for the Flyers which will affect the long term success of this team. I believe we should be selling and unload as many high priced vets as possible and compile picks or younger players , to be used in trades to improve the defense. If we can trade for one defenseman and then sign an UFA defenseman it will be a huge improvement. JVR is having his best season and his value will never be higher, he needs to be traded.  We should not re-sign Giroux, if we can trade him to a true contender, he might waive his NMC for a legit shot at the Cup. He would only have to deal with one season away from Philly. Then he will become an UFA and he can go wherever he wants. Then we bribe Seattle to take Voracek, that like 25 million in free cap space to hopefully sign an impact UFA.  We are not ever going to win with this aging core, management needs to face the facts. If we hold on to these older fading players another year , we will be stuck with them and their bloated contracts, for the duration which will handcuff us financially for the next few years and we will still not win the Cup as we watch our get older , slower and less productive .

Edited March 22, 2021 by RonJeremy

[radoran]

When they sucked under Hackstol it was because Hackstol wasn't any good and had no experience at the NHL level.

 

Now they have three actual, legitimate, NHL head coaches on the roster and the "definitely a playoff team" is "becoming unglued" - again.

 

It's not the coach. It's the same group of underachieving players that have one playoff win in eight (going on nine) years. And their impact on the younger players coming up has clearly not been a positive...

 

Yeah, I'm looking at the least successful captain in franchise history before I'm going on the "they need a coaching change" bandwagon again. No, of course it's "not all his fault" #notallhisfault. But he's hardly been "the solution" either.

 

The Flyers have consistently overvalued the players for almost a decade now. The time is now to sell off the vets, admit this decade was a failure, and set a new course for the 2020s.

[mojo1917]

@radoran

That's going to take massive stones.

Think Fletcher is the guy for that?

Does Comcast truly "care"?

 

I won't be spending money to watch more of what's been happening this month.