Dale Weise takes shots at Flyers leadership

[radoran]

Just now, FD19372 said:

It's not JUST THAT. It's that they tried to replace him with far less talented stiffs like Braun, and the now traded Gustaffson. This organization was caught, with it's proverbial pants down, with a much less than brilliant plan.

 

I don't disagree, but I also - as we've discussed - don't see the obvious guy they "should have gotten" and didn't.

 

Like I said, those guys aren't a dime a dozen and are hard to replace.

 

They kind of lucked into Niskanen with Washington wanting to clear some cap space and already having Carlson filling that role on the back end.

 

You remember, the guy that the Flyers drafted Luca Sbisa eight spots ahead of? Yeah, him. #2020hindsight

[tucson83]

27 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

It's not JUST THAT. It's that they tried to replace him with far less talented stiffs like Braun, and the now traded Gustaffson. This organization was caught, with it's proverbial pants down, with a much less than brilliant plan.

 

he tried to get petro but he wanted vegas and the other names werent game changers either, so he had to settle with what he had, not just that but the expansion draft as well. actually this fa has alot of good players and i know fletch will go after them.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Do we even know care?

 

FIFY!!!!

 

[CoachX]

[flyer4ever]

On 4/22/2021 at 12:51 PM, FD19372 said:

Former Flyer Dale Weise takes shots at the leadership on this Flyers team, while giving tons of praise to Shea Weber....stating that "Weber holds guys accountable" and "you aren't going to walk into the locker room stating 'I need my cookies...I need my points'. Weise goes on to state "You know I talked about Philly's culture and Philly's locker room and that was something I saw very apparent there, there was zero accountability, it wasn't coming from the coaching staff, it wasn't coming from the leadership group it was basically a free for all."  (I copied and pasted the last part, and couldn't modify it). It sounds like the Flyers locker room, might be a bit of a carnival atmosphere...."Club Med" as I had previously mentioned... with no one getting anyone's face for poor performance. No one seems to be saying, improve your game, or find another place to play..or anything close to that. A lot of guys seem to be happy with their check. Or, is this just "sour grapes" from Dale Weise? I think it is what we all suspected...a lack of accountability THROUGHOUT this organization from Paul Holmgren to the GM, and from the coach trickling down to the players in the locker room, who are supposed to be leaders, like Claude Giroux.

IF I was #28 I would have asked to be traded as much as 5 years ago. When he saw what Hextall was trying to do, and not adding pieces that would add up to a Cup run I would have asked out. Why hasn't that happened. IMHO, that says the fire in the belly isn't there, that he has 8.2million reasons to stay here and play safe pain free hockey. That by itself says his leadership skill is questionable.

Perhaps another piece of evidence that #28 isn't all that we think he is is his Team Canada record. For someone who was top 5 in the NHL for a period of time he does not have as much on his international resume as he should. I am NOT bashing Claud here as much as I"m saying the Flyers have not supported him. But it is time for him to move along. If he stays he costs the Flyers an asset in the Kraken draft, in addition to his worth diminishing. If they keep him it stalls the rebuild another 2 years.

[radoran]

52 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

actually this fa has alot of good players and i know fletch will go after them.

 

It'll be interesting to see who actually gets to UFA when all is said and done. (And I may not be as impressed with the current list as you are - happy to learn? https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2022/caphit/all/all/ufa )

 

That said, the Flyers have $70M of an $81M cap already spent and have zero goalies signed for next season with Sanheim (RFA) and Morin (UFA G6) unsigned (and RFA Patrick, but...).

 

I'm guessing they will get a nice bridge style deal with Hart after the season that he's had.

 

So there's probably in the $5-6M range that they can look at barring other moves and whoever is lost to the Kraken.

 

I do hope they do a real shakeout of this roster and open up some space (JVR, Voracek) to make some bigger deals if they are available. I have a feeling they're going to keep chasing the dragon...

 

Making the right moves is going to be critical and committing money and term to a guy just because he's "best available" puts them in the same place they are with JVR.

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

I'll do you one better: If Giroux and Voracek were in their mid 20s and had just "emerged", signing big contracts say last year, there's a very good chance I would be preaching how we need to give them a chance and see if this season was an anomaly and if they just need time to settle into being the core of this team... but that isn't where we're at now. They're not just entering their prime and likely to get better -- just the opposite. 

 

If Giroux and Voracek had just emerged this year as you put it I'd be ecstatic about getting such great players. This season was no anomaly for either of them; both are about where they always are, north of 60 with potential for 80+. For me there'd be no need to "give them a chance." Weighing their strengths and weaknesses I'd say Flyers' fans should be very happy to have them both.

 

As to your overall view, that neither of them nor both together are "enough" to win championships I agree completely. Having those 2 in their mid-20s would be a fantastic beginning. But back to reality...

 

I'd love to see Fletcher make "big changes" this summer but I doubt it'll happen. If he can add a veteran D-man who plays big minutes that'll be a good off-season. Until the expansion draft is over I don't expect much movement.

 

I wish Fletcher would lose Hayes. He's the poster boy of the JVR fan club. I know it won't happen as it was his one and only "Big Move" for the Flyers. As much as Jake Voracek is loathed around here that's my feeling about Hayes.

[FD19372]

17 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Weighing their strengths and weaknesses I'd say Flyers' fans should be very happy to have them both.

I should be happy with a captain, who only wins faceoffs, goes through major offensive droughts and makes 9 millon dollars guaranteed? His play and production don't measure up to his salary, and Voracek is an on again/off again half engaged flake, who still doesn't shoot the puck nearly enough and so doesn't score consistently..and doesn't backcheck or seem engaged in a play half the time, mentally or physically. Jake Mr. pass Voracek still doesn't play aggressively often enough. I'm tired of it. If trading Jake means trading Giroux, then do it...don't give me "locker room culture". Jake the Flake is an overpaid at... 4.25 mll... second line player. I am not happy to have them both, and I've weighed their strengths and weaknesses.

[Cheesesteak]

21 hours ago, Samifan said:

Don’t remember Jake being benched or having minutes reduced? I do recall a “demotion” to the 3rd line at some point this year but he was still out there being Jake. 

Jakers gonna Jake 

[Cheesesteak]

4 hours ago, elmatus said:

I was very willing to jump onto the Giroux/Voracek train for a while, but the truth is it really has not panned out at all. Those guys were meant to be the pillars this team was built upon, and it has proven to be just not good enough. That's not to say they're awful players -- and that really isn't what I mean to say. Giroux is a great player. He's just not enough. Voracek is an above average player, but he's likewise not good enough. Couts, Hayes... same thing. These guys amount to a pretty solid supporting cast. What we need is a primary protagonist or two, which we do not have. 

[flyer4ever]

2 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

Looks like it was the third line that buckled. Does that mean it was Laughtons fault?

[radoran]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I wish Fletcher would lose Hayes. He's the poster boy of the JVR fan club. I know it won't happen as it was his one and only "Big Move" for the Flyers. As much as Jake Voracek is loathed around here that's my feeling about Hayes.

 

I was completely underwhelmed with the Hayes signing. It does have the potential to be another JVRish deal - long term, big bucks to the "best available" player that fills an immediate need.

 

And that's what worries me about this offseason - "trying to make it work" with whatever veteran blueliner might be willing to sign here, and then giving them long term and big money.

 

Savard, for example, is "fine" - but he's 30 and if he wants a six year deal, $5+M deal that's just not worth it from where I sit. And that's not to say he's not going to get that kind of offer from someone.

 

After Hamilton (who I don't know fills the Flyers "need") I just don't see the "game changer" on D in this list:
https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2022/caphit/all/defense/ufa

 

That said... Hey, everybody! Luke Schenn is available!

 

[radoran]

Just now, flyer4ever said:

Looks like it was the third line that buckled. Does that mean it was Laughtons fault?

 

Must've been when Jake was on the third...

 

"You mean I have to hold this up the whole time?"

 

[ruxpin]

On 4/22/2021 at 3:58 PM, radoran said:

 

Scott Laughton: glad to be here

 

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

It's time to move G this offseason.

Edited April 23, 2021 by ruxpin

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I wish Fletcher would lose Hayes. He's the poster boy of the JVR fan club. I know it won't happen as it was his one and only "Big Move" for the Flyers. As much as Jake Voracek is loathed around here that's my feeling about Hayes.

 

i agree completely. To be fair, I’ve actually found Hayes to be pretty good. He’s definitely not the weak link on the team imo, and i can definitely see him being part of a contender. 

 

That said, his contract was always bound to be an anchor at some point. I very much hope it ends up being an anchor on some other team and not this one, which to me means he needs to be moved pronto, while he still has value. I’m not convinced too many team will want to take on that ridiculous contract, but if it’s any possibility at all, it has to be this off season.

 

In fact, if only one person is moved this offseason, he gets my vote for sure. I hope he’s not the only one moved, but he should be the top of the list.

 

i can’t believe I’m saying this considering how often I’ve lambasted him on here, but i would even say Jake is the one i care about moving the least. Mostly that’s because i don’t think he would net such a great return, unlike Giroux, and his contract isn’t for much longer anyway, unlike Hayes. 

 

So, for me, Hayes is one, and Giroux is two. Those two should both go. And then Jake should also be shopped around to see what he might fetch, and if some GM is willing to overpay for him, move him also. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by elmatus

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

That said... Hey, everybody! Luke Schenn is available!

 

LOL 

[CoachX]

3 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Weighing their strengths and weaknesses I'd say Flyers' fans should be very happy to have them both.

 

As to your overall view, that neither of them nor both together are "enough" to win championships I agree completely.

Hunh?

 

you said Flyer fans should be happy to have them, then say you agree having them is not good enough to win championships?

 

What should we be happy about then?

 

 

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

It's time to move G this offseason.

well said!

 

timely!

 

succinct!

 

on point!

 

some of your best work

[radoran]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Hunh?

 

you said Flyer fans should be happy to have them, then say you agree having them is not good enough to win championships?

 

What should we be happy about then?

 

Being someone who likes "Euro" players I liked Jake at the start. I was like many willing to give this a chance.

 

There was the chance that they did "win the trades".

 

But they clearly lost the trades.

 

And Jake has exhibited some of the worst traits of "Euro" players.

 

And I like Giroux in any role other than captain.

 

But this whole thing is really played out by now.

[GratefulFlyers]

 

16 hours ago, elmatus said:

So, for me, Hayes is one, and Giroux is two. Those two should both go. And then Jake should also be shopped around to see what he might fetch, and if some GM is willing to overpay for him, move him also. 

 

I doubt Fletcher will shop Hayes (admitting he was a mistake). Maybe some blind GM will see him as a solid contributor...though I doubt there's a scouting dept. that never watched the Rangers or the Flyers.

 

I imagine Giroux could be squeezed out but that's never been the Flyers M.O. I wouldn't actively shop him anyway, he's only got 1 more year on his contract. Even though he'll probably never put up another 90+ season he's still valuable to the Flyers, more than whatever Fletcher would get in return for him this summer. And that goes triple for Voracek with his 3 more years at $8.25mil per.

[CoachX]

If the flyers kept Giroux, it wouldnt break my heart. But not as Captain. At the end of next year, if he wants to stay in Philly, he can sign a contract worthy of his contribution on ice

[elmatus]

35 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

 

I doubt Fletcher will shop Hayes (admitting he was a mistake). Maybe some blind GM will see him as a solid contributor...though I doubt there's a scouting dept. that never watched the Rangers or the Flyers.

 

I imagine Giroux could be squeezed out but that's never been the Flyers M.O. I wouldn't actively shop him anyway, he's only got 1 more year on his contract. Even though he'll probably never put up another 90+ season he's still valuable to the Flyers, more than whatever Fletcher would get in return for him this summer. And that goes triple for Voracek with his 3 more years at $8.25mil per.

 

To be honest, I feel like we're agreeing on far more than not here. The only difference is maybe in what value Giroux and Hayes have, and what could be obtained in a trade. 

 

I'm of the mind a decent GM should be able to get a 1st round pick and a prospect for a guy like Giroux. And I believe we should do that, because this team needs a rebuild, and that to me starts with getting as many of those things as possible.

 

Hayes won't fetch that return of course. He's not a 80pt playmaker and former team captain. I feel like maybe we disagree a bit on his skill though. I think he is actually a pretty good two-way mid-six centerman in this league, and I think he could be exactly that on a contending team. I think contending teams both want and need that kind of center depth, and that's exactly what he provides. He reminds me a lot of a Jordan Staal type, who was moved from *spit* Pittsburgh to fill a bigger role in Carolina. 

 

Now, unlike Staal, Hayes' contract is awful. So I've no doubt he'll be harder to move than Staal was at the time. But that to me is exactly what separates a good GM from a bad one. Hayes is a test for Fletch. Can he move him? If so, what can he get in return? Hayes won't fetch a 1st rounder or whatever like Giroux should, but he really doesn't have to. The problem with Hayes for me isn't that he's a bad player at all -- it's that his contract isn't what a team needs as they look to kickstart a rebuild. Get rid of the anchor now while you can and before we're on the hook overpaying for a player who is a fourth line checking center at best.

 

Voracek is kind of between the two. With good linemates, he produces better than a guy like Hayes, but he's not as productive as Giroux of course, and he doesn't bring the other more defensive intangibles that Hayes does fairly well. As a result, he's not likely to fetch a great return. This is why I say he may just be worth keeping in the end. I don't see the point of moving him for some 3rd round pick or whatever. I'd rather have the 50pts or whatever he's likely to put up next season.

 

I do get what you're saying about Fletch likely being unwilling to part with Hayes because of his pride, or to part with Giroux even, because he may hold on to some faint belief that this core is actually plenty good enough and just needs yet another season to figure it all out. On that note, I'll put it this way: Fletch to me has done well enough for a guy who was brought in to tweak the team into a contending position. I don't believe this team is going to be a contender with the tools currently available, so now we get to see whether this same GM Fletch is capable of assuming a new role -- that of a rebuilder instead of a tweaker.

 

Like you, I have my doubts on that. If he doesn't assume that role though, that will probably be a turning point for me personally. If we enter next season with this same core of players, I'll be forced to deduce that Fletch is just a crummy GM. That may be the truth of it, but I'm willing to give him the chance to prove me wrong at least.

Edited April 24, 2021 by elmatus

[Howie58]

In addition to the Jake and G "Problem," I see another mess.  I don't see a real top line center.  I love Coots.  But he is not Barkov.  Hayes is probably cut from the same cloth.  Who knows about Patrick.  And we just signed Laughton.  I could live without G or V.  Then, we have to reconfigure our top line--along with D and whatever.  

 

G may be less of a problem given end of contract.  I really believe that if he stays with the club its on a lower salary and probably as a winger to extend his career. V is the bigger, longer mess.  I also think a potential Cup team might want to have a G around--yes, he is NMC, but G might actually want to end or reboot his career with a team on the upswing. Our next two years may not be so hot.  Sadly, FAs may not want to head here.  On the other hand, some folks might move on.

[GratefulFlyers]

30 minutes ago, elmatus said:

The problem with Hayes for me isn't that he's a bad player at all -- it's that his contract isn't what a team needs as they look to kickstart a rebuild.

 

I think he is a bad player. He's got too much Petr Nedved in him w/out the goal-scoring. That's why I call him the poster boy for the JVR fan club. He floats about 80% of his shifts, just drifts, stays away from the play. The other 20% I see a good player, a strong guy on the puck no doubt. It's just that, like JVR, it only happens once a week if that.

 

33 minutes ago, elmatus said:

because he may hold on to some faint belief that this core is actually plenty good enough and just needs yet another season to figure it all out.

 

Oh lord almighty I hope not. No one in their right mind can believe this core, with just a few tweaks on D and some secondary scoring help is Cup-bound. Unless - and it's an impossible "unless" - Fletcher can steal away one of the big, bad-ass #1 D-men around the league + tons of secondary scoring kicks in, maybe then they're a legitimate threat to win the Cup. Otherwise I just can't see the Flyers advancing past R1.

 

42 minutes ago, elmatus said:

To be honest, I feel like we're agreeing on far more than not here. The only difference is maybe in what value Giroux and Hayes have, and what could be obtained in a trade. 

 

I think so too. Last night brought home to me the fact that Giroux, Voracek and Couturier are "wasted" on a team that's missing that "stud D-man" and a true sniper type, someone who's always a threat to score goals. I saw 2 great setups by Giroux and Voracek, feeding Alison at the net and he couldn't put it home. Not blaming the kid just made me realize how many great setups went for nought because the only finisher the Flyers have is JVR...which kinda says it all.