Flyers are a bottom five team, what are the desired plans for the rebuild we don't need?

[GrittyForever]

20 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Use your draft picks instead of trading them away. It's how we got Carter Hart/Konecny/Couturier/Sanheim/Provorov/Frost/Allison/Farabee. Stop signing FAs just for the sake of signing them. Thats how we got Hayes and JVR. Bring in people who can develop NHL talent. Stop overpaying for bums like Ristolainen. Theres four easy ways to make this team better that took me all of 3 seconds to figure out.

See. Now that wasn't so hard was it. 

Pretty much agree, but who are these "people" you want brought in? I think they have more than enough "people" on the payroll already. Probably too many. Get rid of a few. 

[GrittyForever]

4 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Ha, your timing is too good.  Prize trade acquisition in the offseason and supposed future of the franchise TDA is a healthy scratch.  Amazing.

 

How is TDA going to punch out Hart when he is a healthy scratch?

Torts being Torts. I have absolutely no problems with it. 

[SCFlyguy]

3 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Haha no this is your view based on your conviction (I’d say speculation) that the Flyers can’t reach their prime in the next 5 years. I’m speculating too but in the other direction. I believe they can get there, and quicker than half a decade, but I’m not convinced they will.

I think they’re going to turn it around by New Years and be one of the best teams in hockey and Hart will win five Vezinas at once.

[SCFlyguy]

I’m not convinced it will be five Vezinas.  It might only be four.

[Digityman]

5 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Haha no this is your view based on your conviction (I’d say speculation) that the Flyers can’t reach their prime in the next 5 years. I’m speculating too but in the other direction. I believe they can get there, and quicker than half a decade, but I’m not convinced they will.

So in simplest terms, you think during this "transformation" (not rebuild) the team reaches their prime (best chance years for a cup) within the next 5 years.  And I think they are approaching their prime in year 5.    Glad we got that sorted out!  

 

I wish there was a way to put a reminder on posts like a calendar system.   That way you could mark it to remind you so many days in the future to remind you to come back to see who was right about predicting what will happen in the future.  @hf101, @radoran,  @yave1964 - quick, someone implement that code please.

 

As for now Grateful poster, if we are still spinning 5 years from now we'll come back to this conversation.

[flyercanuck]

4 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

See. Now that wasn't so hard was it. 

Pretty much agree, but who are these "people" you want brought in? I think they have more than enough "people" on the payroll already. Probably too many. Get rid of a few. 

 

Hard to come up with ways to improve the Flyers? Hell no...that's been my point all along.

 

The people I'd like brought in are ones that actually have been successful at what they do, instead of used to play for the Flyers, or my buddies son who sucked at his previous job or from Minnesota. Just like the answer for ways to make Philly better, it ain't rocket science, its common sense. Look at successful franchises and scoop someone they've been grooming who's put years and years into their career. Tampa, Colorado, Carolina etc, teams that have been continually good for years. Darche, Billington.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by flyercanuck

[flyercanuck]

9 minutes ago, Digityman said:

So in simplest terms, you think during this "transformation" (not rebuild) the team reaches their prime (best chance years for a cup) within the next 5 years.  And I think they are approaching their prime in year 5.    Glad we got that sorted out!  

 

I wish there was a way to put a reminder on posts like a calendar system.   That way you could mark it to remind you so many days in the future to remind you to come back to see who was right about predicting what will happen in the future.  @hf101, @radoran,  @yave1964 - quick, someone implement that code please.

 

As for now Grateful poster, if we are still spinning 5 years from now we'll come back to this conversation.

 

I think we can confidently say that with the present management team we are now 5 years away from being 5 years away. 

[GratefulFlyers]

4 hours ago, Digityman said:

So in simplest terms, you think during this "transformation" (not rebuild) the team reaches their prime (best chance years for a cup) within the next 5 years.  And I think they are approaching their prime in year 5.    Glad we got that sorted out!

 

Right, that's what I'm saying but only if things go the way we hope they will. Unless management chooses a different direction there won't be a prime or a rib-eye or even a shoulder cut that fans will want to sink their teeth into (or their $$).

 

If it's still Fletcher at the TD we won't need a calendar to see who was right and wrong. It will be dead obvious that the Flyers are bulling ahead with the same losing mentality: "just make the POs."

 

To be fair I guess it's possible that Fletcher and the suits accept what Tortorella is preaching. And realistically that's probably what we fans have to hope for. If they do it would be a major reversal in their thinking, but ...

 

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

it ain't rocket science, its common sense.

 

... it only takes admitting the obvious: their way hasn't worked and it never will. Try something different you $@#^ hockey geniuses.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by GratefulFlyers

[tucson83]

On 12/9/2022 at 5:24 AM, flyercanuck said:

 

Use your draft picks instead of trading them away. It's how we got Carter Hart/Konecny/Couturier/Sanheim/Provorov/Frost/Allison/Farabee. Stop signing FAs just for the sake of signing them. Thats how we got Hayes and JVR. Bring in people who can develop NHL talent. Stop overpaying for bums like Ristolainen. Theres four easy ways to make this team better that took me all of 3 seconds to figure out. Flame away...and keep cheering this lameass excuse of what used to be a great franchise. If it hurts your feelings to read my posts just put me on ignore...simple. But please don't tell me what to do. If you're ok with being the laughingstock of the league, enjoy it, embrace it. I'm not. 

 

Sure I'd have a lot more fun if they were winning. But I'd even have fun watching them if there was a plan in place on how to rebuild this catastrophe. But the plan is to win now, with a lineup that just can't. If they tore it down and tried to rebuild this thing properly I'd be right in line with them and cheering win or lose....like I've done probably a lot longer than you have.

you are saying our defense was fine in the 2021 shorten season? so it's ok to just not fix the defense and let hart get lit up every game? i mean if you want to tank the roster because you dont like to lose, how is having no defense and goaltending which is hard to acquire going to make anything better?

 

it's not easy to fix a team when the previous gm doesnt trade for a great defenseman like dougie, doesnt draft for defenseman in the top 5 and takes an injuried center, trades away a scoring center for a center that cant score at all, drafts players that cant score at all, how is the fletch supposed to fix it all when the whole roster is a mess from the previous gm?

 

why not takes some positive things from this season and build from that? our defense is better, our goaltending is better, we need goal scoring, problem is they are not ready to play yet and depending on what's available this offseason and if they are interested in coming here, we could be contender alot sooner than like waiting another decade for a player that you may never get. has fletch made mistakes? yes but to blame it all on him is ridiculous because no gm is going to turn this terrible roster into a contender right away because if you believe that then you are not facing reality that hextall screwed this team up in the long haul. if you cant wait a couple more years for the next gm to fix this with fletchers guys then i dont know what to tell you.

 

because they are not going to tank bottom line, only a few teams have done it, havent won nothing, havent made the playoffs for the long time, i mean you are complaining about losing now, i mean how are you going to have the patience or be happy for another decade or more of losing when nothing is a guarantee when it comes to the lottery?

[OccamsRazor]

On 12/9/2022 at 7:49 AM, Digityman said:

 

I understand your point, I just don't agree with it.

 

If you sell Prov/TK high you get a chance at getting one or more players that *might* be better.

If you keep Prov/TK you keep them their value declines starting next year along with any possible returns. (impending UFAs)

 

Players are like stocks.  There are ones that age well and those that don't.   For example Giroux aged really well.  His value at 34 (should have) fetched a (more) healthy return AND while they kept him he had great dividends.  Players reach a point to where their value starts to diminish.   He's like the Disney, Apple.... slight up and downs but you know what you'll get for a long period of time and you reinvest those dividends.

 

Statistically forwards peak at 28 and defencemen peak at 29.   Both Prov/TK are 25 and will be 28 in 3 years (2025/6), which is about the earliest most on this board think the Flyers will be relevant again.   So you get those players at their peak for (arguably) 1-2 years and then they start to decline.   Not only that but both players are UFA's that year and if they keep at their current pace, will require salary increases.   So, you get them for 1-2 years at current salary, then they want a long stable contract moving forward (the kind we all complain about).   

 

In my opinion, that's not good asset management.  Many posters on here have complained about giving too long of contract to those 27-30 year old UFA's who have already reached their peak but want to be paid on 'past' performance.  

 

So the Flyers have three choices:   

1. Sell high on both.  This year fetches the most, next year slightly less because of impending UFA in 3 years.   Get picks (preferable)
2. Keep them, extend them in 2024/5 for long term for more money and complain that they got too much term/money
3. Lose them for nothing to UFA

Again, all in my opinion, but the choice is pretty clear as to which I would think makes the most sense.

 

To your point, I don't want to sell everyone.  It makes no sense BUT they need to start selling high on players to get better returns (picks).

 

Great post.

 

As i said somewhere else here i just ask that Chuck be fired and the new GM whomever it is do all the trading and big moves i don't trust Chuck at all anymore to fix his own mistakes.

 

Please please fire this man and find a new guy to mold this team into the team they need to be.

 

Chuck has destroyed this club year by year....keep the tank going for Bedard and then fire Chucks ASAP.

[flyercanuck]

26 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

you are saying our defense was fine in the 2021 shorten season? so it's ok to just not fix the defense and let hart get lit up every game? i mean if you want to tank the roster because you dont like to lose, how is having no defense and goaltending which is hard to acquire going to make anything better?

 

 Where am I saying the defence is fine? Fix the defence? Fletcher brought in Ristolainen and Deangelo, 2 guys who haven't a clue how to play D. We have goaltending, it's the only reason we win any games. 

 

26 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

it's not easy to fix a team when the previous gm doesnt trade for a great defenseman like dougie, doesnt draft for defenseman in the top 5 and takes an injuried center, trades away a scoring center for a center that cant score at all, drafts players that cant score at all, how is the fletch supposed to fix it all when the whole roster is a mess from the previous gm?

 

 I will take the team that Hextall left, with the draft picks and farm system and the cap where it was, over what Fletcher has "contributed" any time. The team actually looked on the way up when Hextall was fired. Provorov looked like he was becoming a top pairing dman. Konecny was becoming our top scorer. Farabee was looking like future captain material. Oh and the ONLY good goalie this team has drafted in 4 decades!

 

 

26 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

why not takes some positive things from this season and build from that? our defense is better, our goaltending is better, we need goal scoring, problem is they are not ready to play yet and depending on what's available this offseason and if they are interested in coming here, we could be contender alot sooner than like waiting another decade for a player that you may never get. has fletch made mistakes? yes but to blame it all on him is ridiculous because no gm is going to turn this terrible roster into a contender right away because if you believe that then you are not facing reality that hextall screwed this team up in the long haul. if you cant wait a couple more years for the next gm to fix this with fletchers guys then i dont know what to tell you.

 

 I'm not just blaming Fletcher, I blame Holmgren just as much...he hired Fletcher. I blame Scott just as much, he's kept Holmgren. Seriously, do you really think this team is on it's way to becoming a contender? It's been going to wrong way in the standings, while trading away draft picks and signing players to terrible contracts trying to compete. It really couldn't be much worse.

 

26 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

because they are not going to tank bottom line, only a few teams have done it, havent won nothing, havent made the playoffs for the long time, i mean you are complaining about losing now, i mean how are you going to have the patience or be happy for another decade or more of losing when nothing is a guarantee when it comes to the lottery?

 

 I'm fine with losing, when there's a plan in place that provides hope in the future. Anyone who knows me on here or the Philly.com boards knows I'm all in on rebuilding the team. Have been since the year we drafted JVR. There's no plan here, it's sign whoever is available whether they fit or not, trade draft picks to win now, yet lose. Hows that working for us? Tell me. The ceiling for this team, if the planets align, is borderline playoff team and get bounced in the first round. Wooooooohooooo!!!

Edited December 10, 2022 by flyercanuck

[SCFlyguy]

Fc, don’t bother with this guy.  He’s the one that doesn’t like drafting and just wants us to sign the big UFA every year, as if the UFA players they’ve signed aren’t one of the biggest issues with this team.

[GrittyForever]

9 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Hard to come up with ways to improve the Flyers? Hell no...that's been my point all along.

 

The people I'd like brought in are ones that actually have been successful at what they do, instead of used to play for the Flyers, or my buddies son who sucked at his previous job or from Minnesota. Just like the answer for ways to make Philly better, it ain't rocket science, its common sense. Look at successful franchises and scoop someone they've been grooming who's put years and years into their career. Tampa, Colorado, Carolina etc, teams that have been continually good for years. Darche, Billington.

 

 

Be specific. You want Fletcher booted - I agree. Who else do you want booted? Be specific. Then, who would you put in their place. Who?

It's too easy to just say "people" from successful franchises. Too vague. So it means nothing, it's just critiquing. 

[SCFlyguy]

How come it’s always the people criticizing the team that have to detail how to fix it?

 

Why don’t you tell us in detail how the team is going to get better other than just because you want them to?

[SCFlyguy]

I think we’ve detailed exhaustively what is wrong with the Flyers and that it is the same stuff as the last 10 years.

 

So I want to hear the detailed miracle plan that takes them from bottom 5 to top 5 in under 5 years.

[SCFlyguy]

Also, Torts makes them play harder isn’t a plan.

[pilldoc]

8 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

So I want to hear the detailed miracle plan that takes them from bottom 5 to top 5 in under 5 years.

 

1) Comcast sells Flyers

2) Get rid of Scott / Fletcher / Clarke / Homer / Barber / Lombardi

 

Until 1 and 2 happens .....no plan will ever work regardless of how we feel .....

[SCFlyguy]

People claiming the Flyers look better and the rebuild is proceeding, how do you explain them having some of the worst metrics of any team in the league.  If anything, the Flyers have outperformed their numbers so far, but these things usually catch up over a full season.

[ruxpin]

7 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

1) Comcast sells Flyers

2) Get rid of Scott / Fletcher / Clarke / Homer / Barber / Lombardi

 

Until 1 and 2 happens .....no plan will ever work regardless of how we feel .....

 

Will you be happy with just #2?   Because I'm afraid I have bad news:  if #1 is going to happen, it's not happening any time soon.

 

Now, if they keep throwing everything into Peacock, maybe the whole damn thing will crash and burn.

 

Btw, I'm not sure when it starts, but Flyers broadcasts are being moved to streaming on Peacock.  It'll be a both/and set up, but only a matter of time until it's exclusively on Peacock.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

1) Comcast sells Flyers

2) Get rid of Scott / Fletcher / Clarke / Homer / Barber / Lombardi

 

Until 1 and 2 happens .....no plan will ever work regardless of how we feel .....

 

Honestly, and I say this as someone who doesn't like Comcast a little bit, I don't think "it's them."

 

They gave Snider free rein and I think are still willing to give the "hockey people" the benefit of the doubt.

 

The problem is that it's the wrong hockey people.

 

I don't have a problem selling to a hockey-oriented group, but I do think they need an entire top to bottom new set of "hockey guys" in there regardless.

 

It's fashionable to bash Hextall, but Makar wasn't even the first defenseman taken in that draft and Patrick was a consensus 1/2 for everyone in the league until a few years later when Clarke took the opportunity to kick someone who was already out the door - as he is won to do. Patrick's career also went off the rails for something having absolutely nothing to do with his previous injury history.

 

IF Patrick panned out and was a legit #2 C behind Couturier with Giroux on the wing on the first line then things go much differently.

 

They didn't. And no one can tell you they say coming what happened.

 

No. One.

 

The fact is that the Flyers had draft picks and cap space under Hextall and were at least maintaining mediocrity.

 

Under Fletcher the team is capped out, one of the worst teams in the league, with no 2nd until 2025, $14M wrapped up in players who may never play again (while being on the cap for 5+ years), and $34M more committed to six guys 28+ with all but one with 2+ years on the term.

 

Zach MacEwan playing better notwithstanding, Tortorella can't make diamonds out of this coal no matter how much pressure he puts on.

 

@GratefulFlyerso outlined a plan that also starts with the cleaning out of the E Suite.

 

I think most acknowledge this simple truth.

 

[ruxpin]

Just now, SCFlyguy said:

People claiming the Flyers look better and the rebuild is proceeding, how do you explain them having some of the worst metrics of any team in the league.  If anything, the Flyers have outperformed their numbers so far, but these things usually catch up over a full season.

 

Keeping things real, you don't.

 

The style of play they're attempting may not show appreciably well in metrics.   They're doing okay defensively, but their approach to defense is not puck possession.  The combination of this and the complete inability to score looks terrible on any metric--including the final scoreboard.

 

There is absolutelyno way to claim this rebuild is proceeding or that the Flyers look better.  It's utter fantasy land butterlies, bunnies, and bubbles by those who will themselves to believe it's true.   

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Will you be happy with just #2?   Because I'm afraid I have bad news:  if #1 is going to happen, it's not happening any time soon.

 

Now, if they keep throwing everything into Peacock, maybe the whole damn thing will crash and burn.

 

Btw, I'm not sure when it starts, but Flyers broadcasts are being moved to streaming on Peacock.  It'll be a both/and set up, but only a matter of time until it's exclusively on Peacock.

 

Right, but Comcast can have broadcast rights without paying themselves for it.

 

And if the ratings aren't good enough to keep on "TV" what's the "real value" to having them on Peacock?

 

I don't think they are selling, but it's not because they need the team on Peacock. I think they'd rather pay themselves for the rights and generate internal revenue.

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Honestly, and I say this as someone who doesn't like Comcast a little bit, I don't think "it's them."

 

They gave Snider free rein and I think are still willing to give the "hockey people" the benefit of the doubt.

 

The problem is that it's the wrong hockey people.

 

I don't have a problem selling to a hockey-oriented group, but I do think they need an entire top to bottom new set of "hockey guys" in there regardless.

 

It's fashionable to bash Hextall, but Makar wasn't even the first defenseman taken in that draft and Patrick was a consensus 1/2 for everyone in the league until a few years later when Clarke took the opportunity to kick someone who was already out the door - as he is won to do. Patrick's career also went off the rails for something having absolutely nothing to do with his previous injury history.

 

IF Patrick panned out and was a legit #2 C behind Couturier with Giroux on the wing on the first line then things go much differently.

 

They didn't. And no one can tell you they say coming what happened.

 

No. One.

 

The fact is that the Flyers had draft picks and cap space under Hextall and were at least maintaining mediocrity.

 

Under Fletcher the team is capped out, one of the worst teams in the league, with no 2nd until 2025, $14M wrapped up in players who may never play again (while being on the cap for 5+ years), and $34M more committed to six guys 28+ with all but one with 2+ years on the term.

 

Zach MacEwan playing better notwithstanding, Tortorella can't make diamonds out of this coal no matter how much pressure he puts on.

 

@GratefulFlyerso outlined a plan that also starts with the cleaning out of the E Suite.

 

I think most acknowledge this simple truth.

 

 

 

Simply fanatastic post.  Every word.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

There is absolutelyno way to claim this rebuild is proceeding or that the Flyers look better. 

 

They look less like the monkey humping a football out there, but "the rebuild" hasn't even started yet.

 

I will say losing "Giroux's Office" on the midboards has opened up the power play that I've seen. They actually have motion out there.

 

They simply don't have the firepower in any aspect of the game.

 

And, again, they're capped out and committed to 28+ guys for the next 3+ years...

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Right, but Comcast can have broadcast rights without paying themselves for it.

 

And if the ratings aren't good enough to keep on "TV" what's the "real value" to having them on Peacock?

 

I don't think they are selling, but it's not because they need the team on Peacock. I think they'd rather pay themselves for the rights and generate internal revenue.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't actually trying to imply that.   It was a rambling post but two separate rambles.

 

1) They're not selling the team.

 

Midstream I remembered the stupid thing about Peacock and went there.   Completely agree with the bolded above.   I don't think they're selling the team, for several reasons.  If Peacock is one of those reasons, I doubt it's high on the list.   I mean, they got the rights to broadcast the Phillies there, as well, and they don't own them (thank God, if you're a Phillies fan).