Does Gudas deserve a suspension for hit on Stalberg?

[SpikeDDS]

Watch the reverse angle on the replay. Doesn't look like any contact with his head happens until after the shoulder impact.

The way this rule is enforced--and I agree with it--it makes no difference what is hit FIRST. If the head is down and you check from the front into the body center mass, the head will be contacted first and hard, but it will not be considered the PRIMARY point of contact, nor should it, even though it may be the INITIAL point of contact.

As I have said before, the best way to explain the difference as far as how it is enforced is to virtually remove the target player's head and neck from his body and see if the majority of the force would still have been imparted on the target player's body. If so, the head is deemed NOT to have been targeted. It was simply in the way of a good body check (assuming the other aspects of the hit are legal). If not, then most of th hit was delivered to the head and neck and the hitting player is deemed to have targeted the head.

It may be a weird way to think about it at first, but it actually is a very useful excercise in determining if a head is or is not targeted as far as how the DPS enforces the rule.

[SpikeDDS]

This is the poster boy for the kind of hit that the NHL is trying to eliminate. Was it on purpose, as in head targeted? Who cares? No player ever needs to have his elbow as high as it was on that hit. In a proper bodycheck, the elbows (emphasize the plural) should be down and in to your sides. You can't convince me that Gudas was not aware of the possibilty of a head hit.

And if the NHL really does want to stop head hits the suspension needs to be at least 3 games.

I could not disagree more concerning the legality and illegality of hits than I do with this post. This is EXACTLY how I want NHL players to hit players with the puck who are not paying attention to their surroundings. Take this video, and put it in the book showing the proper way to deliver a hit. I'm sorry, but anyone who says this kind of hit does not belong in our game is trying to neuter it, and is wrongly trying to remove the responsibility from the player who has the puck for keeping himself aware of his surroundings and not putting himself in a position of jeopardy. I'm not saying that opposing players have no responsibility for using some restraint at times. I'm saying that if a player has the puck and plays ignorantly of their surroundings, the nature of this game--played properly--is that they are putting themselves in a position to get seriously hurt, and they shouldn't be playing that way. It seems in today's game, we are not emphasizing the importance of that responsibility.

I have been a pretty vocal advocate in praise of the NHL--compared to other major sports, anyway--as far as taking the lead in reducing and managing head injuries. (It doesn't mean they have done everything right; it means they have done the most right of any major contact sport.) But I also recognize that if you do everything to try to completely eliminate head injuries in this sport, then you will end up with a completely neutered, boring, non-contact sport. It won't be hockey anymore.

No.

P.S. My Red Wing glasses have no bearing in contributing to a bias either way on this front. I have nothing for or against either team or either player.

[jammer2]

  It's not Radko's fault that Stalberg caught a bit of the Eric Lindros disease. He was not trying to target the head, and right before contact, Stalberg goes a bit more upright, which changed where Gudas made the initial contact. His shoulder might have caught a bit of his head, but that was due to Stalberg changing his positioning. Gudas was aiming at his chest.....no suspension needed here.

 

  I just knew I was going to thoroughly enjoy watching Gudas play the game. This guy was born to be a Flyer, wears his heart on his sleeve and goes about his business in a lunch bucket middle class kinda way. I've got a lot of respect for the guy....the kind of guy you can go to war with and you would want him in your foxhole. Even when all the defensive prospects make their way to the NHL in a few years, I still want Gudas to be part of the team. Last pairing is fine. I love the way he goes out of his way to punish forwards. Skates better than Luke Schenn, way faster than Grossmann ever dreamed of being....and can throw with the best of them. He also has much better natural instincts that Luke....there is not room for both of them next year...and Gudas should win this battle hands down.

[King Knut]

The way this rule is enforced--and I agree with it--it makes no difference what is hit FIRST. If the head is down and you check from the front into the body center mass, the head will be contacted first and hard, but it will not be considered the PRIMARY point of contact, nor should it, even though it may be the INITIAL point of contact.

As I have said before, the best way to explain the difference as far as how it is enforced is to virtually remove the target player's head and neck from his body and see if the majority of the force would still have been imparted on the target player's body. If so, the head is deemed NOT to have been targeted. It was simply in the way of a good body check (assuming the other aspects of the hit are legal). If not, then most of th hit was delivered to the head and neck and the hitting player is deemed to have targeted the head.

It may be a weird way to think about it at first, but it actually is a very useful excercise in determining if a head is or is not targeted as far as how the DPS enforces the rule.

Rinaldo.

If they suspend Gudas they need to be held accountable and go back and suspend Rinaldo who did all of that, just much worse.

Plus as much as I may agree with you, there is no way to hold a player to that standard. Gudas lowers his shoulder and makes clear shoulder to chest contact. There's literally no way to do it more cleanly. Take only other option is not to hit. SomE guys make that choice. Umberger did earlier in the game. Could have killed a guy but chose to do nothing. Made problems for his team as a result.

If the Gudas hit is illegal then it's officiall a no contact league.

[jammer2]

f the Gudas hit is illegal then it's officiall a no contact league.

 

Agree 100%....if that hit is no good, we are watching a pussification of our NHL.

[SpikeDDS]

Rinaldo.

If they suspend Gudas they need to be held accountable and go back and suspend Rinaldo who did all of that, just much worse.

Plus as much as I may agree with you, there is no way to hold a player to that standard. Gudas lowers his shoulder and makes clear shoulder to chest contact. There's literally no way to do it more cleanly. Take only other option is not to hit. SomE guys make that choice. Umberger did earlier in the game. Could have killed a guy but chose to do nothing. Made problems for his team as a result.

If the Gudas hit is illegal then it's officiall a no contact league.

Not sure why you quoted me and then made this statement in response, but just to clarify if somehow you interpreted what I said as to indict either Rinaldo or Gudas, that is the opposite of what I was saying. Neither of these hits falls outside of what the head targeting rule, as it is being enforced, says is legal. Just to make sure what I said was clear as a bell. Your response makes me wonder if I was unclear on that. If I was, I hope this clarifies.

[King Knut]

As I have said before, the best way to explain the difference as far as how it is enforced is to virtually remove the target player's head and neck from his body and see if the majority of the force would still have been imparted on the target player's body. If so, the head is deemed NOT to have been targeted. It was simply in the way of a good body check (assuming the other aspects of the hit are legal). If not, then most of th hit was delivered to the head and neck and the hitting player is deemed to have targeted the head.

It may be a weird way to think about it at first, but it actually is a very useful excercise in determining if a head is or is not targeted as far as how the DPS enforces the rule.

Wait what hit are you talking about ?

The one I'm watching and watching again shows radko hitting shoulder to chest. And contact with his head is incidental, more of a brush a a smush. Not a hit by any imaginary stretch.

Even so that's actually the thing that makes it dangerous. It's whiplash physics. The body gets stopped abruptly, the head keeps moving, the neck snaps the head back into place straining the neck muscles and neurons in the spine and meninges.

We often say concussion, but it's actually the same thing as whiplash or a glass jaw style knock out.

[King Knut]

Not sure why you quoted me and then made this statement in response, but just to clarify if somehow you interpreted what I said as to indict either Rinaldo or Gudas, that is the opposite of what I was saying. Neither of these hits falls outside of what the head targeting rule, as it is being enforced, says is legal. Just to make sure what I said was clear as a bell. Your response makes me wonder if I was unclear on that. If I was, I hope this clarifies.

My indictment was of a league that might treat the two differently.

[Illflyaway]

You are correct that he does not make contact with his elbow. I never said he did. But he uses it to raise his shoulder to the point where it contacts the head instead of the chest. I know this guy is a Flyer and the recipent is a Ranger, but if the players were reversed would you still be OK with it?    I suspect not...

 

Is it really possible to raise your shoulder with your elbow?

[terp]

I have no idea. The whole check to the head thing has become an elaborate parlor game for the initiated few played out in an office building in Toronto. Does the fact that Gudas hit his head first make it the primary point of contact? I don't know.

[SpikeDDS]

I have no idea. The whole check to the head thing has become an elaborate parlor game for the initiated few played out in an office building in Toronto. Does the fact that Gudas hit his head first make it the primary point of contact? I don't know.

The answer is no. I am confidently predicting it will not based upon my previous reasoning with which the DPS seems to be in agreement.

 

Although it WOULD be better if the league had it in the rule book about specifically when it is deemed a head shot and when it is not, in my view the DPS have been pretty darn consistent about following the guideline of the headless/neckless player to assess it. Kinda like the MLB umpires. You WISH they would all have the same strike zone. They don't, but the next best thing is each umpire consistently calling balls and strikes the same every time i.e. consistency. In my view, they have done that with this rule.

[King Knut]

Is it really possible to raise your shoulder with your elbow?

 

Yeah, totally.  I saw this stripper once in Prague who could...  oh wait.  nevermind.

[Bakanekimiwa]

This topic actually makes me quite irritated. This was a clean hit, pure and simple. The hockey news posts an article saying he could possibly be suspended for click bait and now everyone's talking about a clean hit. This is a slippery slope and next thing you know clean hits will be taken out of the game. 

 

Clean hit, end of story. We could discuss how the Rags player skated unawares up the middle of the ice with his head slightly down, though... I'd be amenable to that. 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

I'm a little late to this topic party here, but I looked at this hit over and over, and I honestly did not see anything wrong with the hit.

 

Comparing this one to the Rinaldo hit, they actually seem pretty similar...the one difference being that Rinaldo actually can bee seen leaving the ice surface on his.

Maybe Rinaldo's hit wasn't intended to be dirty...maybe it was a reaction leaving his feet to deliver the hit because Rinaldo himself isn't exactly a heavyweight guy (believe me, I am not defending the Cro-Magnon, just offering up possibilities)...but Rinaldo DID leave his feet.

 

No such thing on the Gudas hit.

In fact, Gudas, being the stout, fire hydrant built guy he is, looked like he simply compacted himself as much as possible and let his momentum and body weight (210-215 pounds or so on a 5'11-6' frame) do the work.

Arm and elbow tucked him, big burly shoulder hitting an unsuspecting player who did not account for all his surroundings.

 

Even going by Gudas' reaction, he didn't feel he did anything wrong. No head looking around to see what the refs were gonna call...even after the whistle blew and Rangers players confronted him, he seemed pretty relaxed about things, as if he honestly felt he didn't do anything outside the rule book.

 

Believe me, I've seen Gudas play enough in the minors and during his Bolts tenure....this hit was about as controlled a hit as you can get while still splattering a guy LEGALLY on the ice.

I've seen Gudas play the part of loose cannon/madman/angry maniac....he was calm, cool, and collected here, and was just doing what Radko Gudas does: hit people hard.

 

If this is the sort of play that Radko will be displaying, then I think he will make for an excellent, effective defenseman that the other team will HAVE to be aware of.

I saw a bit of his 'maturing' from maniac to controlled aggressor right before his injury in TB....and it looks like he simply has taken the next step in controlled aggression...but by NO means is he a 'tamed' player.

 

I am sorry for Stalberg, but that was a clean, but big league hit, by a guy who seems to have learned how to do it and stay within the rules doing so.

I could say the same about Rinaldo's (putting his past history aside for just a sec), except Rinaldo did leave his feet a bit.

So if Zac didn't get a suspension, THIS hit by Radko surely doesn't deserve one.

 

My 47 cents.

[TedZep]

No player ever needs to have his elbow as high as it was on that hit.

 

Are you watching the same video as the rest of us?!  Or are you claiming that an elbow held at naval level is too high, and somehow impacted Stalberg's head, which didn't even almost sort of happen?

 

Oh, I see, you claim his "elbow lifted his shoulder" later on... anatomy doesn't work that way.  Clean hit.

[AJgoal]

Yeah, the elbow lifting the shoulder is just not...physically possible. The only way the elbow could influence the position of the shoulder is if it was leveraging off an object bracing the lower arm which just isn't the case here. Gudas' stick is being held by his left hand, and his right forearm is away from his body, so he has nothing to "lever up" against. Maybe I'm just overthinking this?

[aziz]

Yeah, the elbow lifting the shoulder is just not...physically possible. The only way the elbow could influence the position of the shoulder is if it was leveraging off an object bracing the lower arm which just isn't the case here. Gudas' stick is being held by his left hand, and his right forearm is away from his body, so he has nothing to "lever up" against. Maybe I'm just overthinking this?

 

 

maybe the guy means that the elbow being around lower sternum level (instead of at the waistline) is an indication of the shoulder itself being carried higher than needed?

 

i dunno, can't figure out what he is on about.

[Adamflyers]

maybe the guy means that the elbow being around lower sternum level (instead of at the waistline) is an indication of the shoulder itself being carried higher than needed?

 

i dunno, can't figure out what he is on about.

I believe it is called grasping at straws.  Hist 1st argument made no sense, so he doubled down with another strange claim, in hopes of digging out of the 1st one.  I think he dug himself such a deep hole, he can't get out to respond 

[OccamsRazor]

I have no idea. The whole check to the head thing has become an elaborate parlor game for the initiated few played out in an office building in Toronto. Does the fact that Gudas hit his head first make it the primary point of contact? I don't know.

 

 

It's turn into the equivalent of the NFL problem with what is a catch and what isn't a catch.....they just confuse other more and more...

[radoran]

I believe the line is between "targeting" the head and "contacting" the head.

 

For example, with the disparity in size of players, it can be difficult for some of the giants to avoid "contact" with a smaller player's head.

 

And with the speed of the game, it can be hard - as it was for Gudas on the play discussed - to avoid that contact as well.

 

But Gudas didn't "target" the head at all.

 

It is a fine line and one that involves a lot of referee discretion (which has it's obvious problems). But it's a line the league has to have given their potential legal liability.

[icehole]

Are you watching the same video as the rest of us?! Or are you claiming that an elbow held at naval level is too high, and somehow impacted Stalberg's head, which didn't even almost sort of happen?

Oh, I see, you claim his "elbow lifted his shoulder" later on... anatomy doesn't work that way. Clean hit.

I think we might not know what an elbow is. Im trying to remember the songs from my childhood. Do you guys remember the on that goes

Head, elbows, knees and toes...knees and toes...

Or

The head bone's connected to the neck bone. The neck bone's connected to the elbow bone. The elbow bone's connected to the arm bone.

It was right in front of us the whole time.

[BluPuk]

I believe it is called grasping at straws.  Hist 1st argument made no sense, so he doubled down with another strange claim, in hopes of digging out of the 1st one.  I think he dug himself such a deep hole, he can't get out to respond 

Here's a little test for you. Stand up (if you can), put your right arm at your side as if you were holding a hockey stick with a slight bend in it. Now without rotating your shoulder joint as that would raise your stick 5 feet into the air, lift your elbow straight up. What happened to you shoulder? Did it not move? In what direction did it move? Do you work for the NHL office??

 

LMAO

[aziz]

Here's a little test for you. Stand up (if you can), put your right arm at your side as if you were holding a hockey stick with a slight bend in it. Now without rotating your shoulder joint as that would raise your stick 5 feet into the air, lift your elbow straight up. What happened to you shoulder? Did it not move? In what direction did it move? Do you work for the NHL office??

 

LMAO

 

 

so, your thing IS that the shoulder was too high, and you referenced the elbow as evidence.  right?  why wouldn't you just talk about the shoulder?  that was about the most confusing way possible to go about making what might be a fair point.

 

even there, though, the shoulder comes up to protect the hitter's head.  he has body parts in play, too, you know, he isn't going to drop his shoulder and lead with his ear.  gudas sets his shoulder for the impact, and that is appropriate and normal.

[Adamflyers]

Here's a little test for you. Stand up (if you can), put your right arm at your side as if you were holding a hockey stick with a slight bend in it. Now without rotating your shoulder joint as that would raise your stick 5 feet into the air, lift your elbow straight up. What happened to you shoulder? Did it not move? In what direction did it move? Do you work for the NHL office??

 

LMAO

Dude...no matter which way you try to spin this, you elbow does not move your shoulder up for a hit to the head.  You can shrug your shoulder to move it up.  If I bring up my elbow, as you have asked me to do in this test, all I am doing is bringing my elbow and upper arm up for an illegal elbow to the head.  My shoulder doesn't move until my elbow is above my head, at which point I would be giving the guy a smelly arm pit to the face.  Maybe effective a college or high school prank, but not a very good way to lay a body check.

 

Gudas keeps his elbow tucked by his side through the hit, so this phantom shoulder raise because of the elbow is BS.  Not sure how many other ways you need to see it or hear about it, but it's obvious you can't get over the whole elbow thing, and I'm done doing elbow/shoulder raises at my desk.  Let's just agree to disagree and move on 

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Here's a little test for you. Stand up (if you can), put your right arm at your side as if you were holding a hockey stick with a slight bend in it. Now without rotating your shoulder joint as that would raise your stick 5 feet into the air, lift your elbow straight up. What happened to you shoulder? Did it not move? In what direction did it move? Do you work for the NHL office??

 

LMAO

 

 

When I try this my elbow gets stuck in my ear.  I had to ask a coworker to pull it out for me.  How do I get the earwax off my elbow?