Schenn on pace for 101 pts...

[OccamsRazor]

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@csummers

attacked, or disagreed with ?

Attacked would be "you stupid SOB WTH are you thinking?!?!?"

I know I disagreed with you in that thread and I still don't miss Schenn.  He was not playing anywhere near his current level with the Flyers.  Based on his performance with the Flyers he wasn't going to play at his Blues level.  He could still cool off, have a nice year scoring 55 - 60 points.  He wasn't producing even at that level here. 

He's a nice player. He may be "woke" now,  so he's focused. He was given lots of chances to succeed here. He played with G & V he played with second line guys. He was given soft o-zone starts.  He was a turnover waiting to happen 5 v 5 here. I don't know if the trade is win win...we'll have to see what Morgan Frost turns into and what the first rounder this year becomes to fully judge it, my thinking is we'll be okay with the return. It just isn't awesome seening Schenn do somewhere else what we were hoping for here.

 

Well said. Yes to fully judge this it will take a few years to see what Frost and the other pick amount too.

 

But as of right now it would be unfair.

[csummers]

31 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@csummers

attacked, or disagreed with ?

Attacked would be "you stupid SOB WTH are you thinking?!?!?"

I know I disagreed with you in that thread and I still don't miss Schenn.  He was not playing anywhere near his current level with the Flyers.  Based on his performance with the Flyers he wasn't going to play at his Blues level.  He could still cool off, have a nice year scoring 55 - 60 points.  He wasn't producing even at that level here. 

He's a nice player. He may be "woke" now,  so he's focused. He was given lots of chances to succeed here. He played with G & V he played with second line guys. He was given soft o-zone starts.  He was a turnover waiting to happen 5 v 5 here. I don't know if the trade is win win...we'll have to see what Morgan Frost turns into and what the first rounder this year becomes to fully judge it, my thinking is we'll be okay with the return. It just isn't awesome seening Schenn do somewhere else what we were hoping for here.

 

 Dont get mad just because I was right and you were wrong. It was a horrible trade. I said it then and if you read the comments, yes, some attacked me.

 is this what you call someone respectfully disagreeing?

 

"I hear you expert if only the Flyers would lean on you for direction all would be right....got it."

 

(if they would have, they would still have schenn, wouldnt have lehtera and their second line would be scoring. Imagne that. two lines........)

 

 Look back at how all you apologists raved about the trade. This is one of my favorites:

 

"Flyers open up a top 6 spot for their youth to fill and get Lehtera who is a clear upgrade on a Bellemare"

 

How about you fill that youth spot with a youth who scored 25 goals twice already and is barely 25 years old? how is an almost 5 million dollar per year guy on your 4th line a good move in any capacity? 

Schenn makes what guys who score 25 goals a year make, in fact he is starting to be a bargain. I said it at the time but oh no............the great ron can do no wrong.

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, csummers said:

 

 Dont get mad just because I was right and you were wrong. It was a horrible trade. I said it then and if you read the comments, yes, some attacked me.

 is this what you call someone respectfully disagreeing?

 

"I hear you expert if only the Flyers would lean on you for direction all would be right....got it."

 

(if they would have, they would still have schenn, wouldnt have lehtera and their second line would be scoring. Imagne that. two lines........)

 

 Look back at how all you apologists raved about the trade. This is one of my favorites:

 

"Flyers open up a top 6 spot for their youth to fill and get Lehtera who is a clear upgrade on a Bellemare"

 

How about you fill that youth spot with a youth who scored 25 goals twice already and is barely 25 years old? how is an almost 5 million dollar per year guy on your 4th line a good move in any capacity? 

Schenn makes what guys who score 25 goals a year make, in fact he is starting to be a bargain. I said it at the time but oh no............the great ron can do no wrong.

 

No one is getting mad (except, seemingly, you).  Certainly not mojo.  I've never seen him post mad in the years I've known him on boards.

 

You're welcome to your opinion; short-sighted as it is.  Enjoy.

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, csummers said:

Dont get mad just because I was right and you were wrong. It was a horrible trade. I said it then and if you read the comments, yes, some attacked me.

 is this what you call someone respectfully disagreeing?

I'm not mad, I don't get mad over this.

 

I also don't know that I am wrong either. 

If you compare Schenn to Lehtera then, you are correct, Hextall got played.

However, I don't know anyone that doesn't count the 2 first round draft picks that accompanied Jori as the real value received for the Flyers in the deal.  Unless you are one of those people.

 

Right now it's not looking too good for those that didn't mind losing a slow skating, poor puck managing, B- player.

But, it is a long season, I will bet you he's not going to be within 25 points of Crosby's production if Crosby stays healthy, Schenn isn't that guy, he's not that good. He's playing well,  I don't think we'd be seeing "St Louis Schenn "if he were still a Flyer I think we saw what we'd be getting and it's not really a big loss.

[Leach27]

schenn is gone what does it matter? If was with the flyers he would probably be doing terrible. Isnt that how it works?

[icehole]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well said. Yes to fully judge this it will take a few years to see what Frost and the other pick amount too.

 

But as of right now it would be unfair.

So to judge this, we have to wait until we see each draft pick at his full NHL potential?  So we'll have to wait until frost is in the league for 3 years, Patrick is in the league for 3 years, 2018 draft picks, 2019 draft picks. When does it end?  Is 3 years even enough time to judge one's potential for an NHL career?

 

I think you can judge year to year.  So far Hextall has failed at putting a good product on the ice.  That's 3 or 4 years of failure.  I can't tell you his batch of draft picks will be failures in 3 years, but you can't tell me they will be successful either.  Until Hextall's plan starts to produce, he is a failure in my book.

 

That's my judgement for now.

[intheslot]

Years to go before you grade this trade ..

Lehtera was just cap clear for the blues.as much as I like schenn the two first rounders were enough .

Oh get a good book on hockey or some skates see what its like to play .

 

[AJgoal]

I don't recall Schenn playing with Giroux and Voracek. I'm sure it happened now and again, but the extended time I recall of him playing with Giroux, it was with Simmonds on the right.

 

I am surprised to see Schenn excelling at center. There was a time when I thought he looked better there than on wing, but he seemed to get worse as a center as time went on.

[OccamsRazor]

33 minutes ago, icehole said:

So to judge this, we have to wait until we see each draft pick at his full NHL potential?  So we'll have to wait until frost is in the league for 3 years, Patrick is in the league for 3 years, 2018 draft picks, 2019 draft picks. When does it end?  Is 3 years even enough time to judge one's potential for an NHL career?

 

I think you can judge year to year.  So far Hextall has failed at putting a good product on the ice.  That's 3 or 4 years of failure.  I can't tell you his batch of draft picks will be failures in 3 years, but you can't tell me they will be successful either.  Until Hextall's plan starts to produce, he is a failure in my book.

 

That's my judgement for now.

 

No you don't have to.

 

I prefer just claiming the Blues the winner off Schenn's 22 games played.

 

Hand them the "We won the trade trophy right now."

 

[ruxpin]

31 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

I don't recall Schenn playing with Hiroux and Voracek. I'm sure it happened now and again, but the extended time I recall of him playing with Giroux, it was with Simmonds on the right.

 

I am surprised to see Schenn excelling at center. There was a time when I thought he looked beter there than on wing, but he seemed to get worse as a center as time went on.

 

Yeah, I don't recall him playing with Giroux and Voracek, either.  It may have happened, since they had him play with just about everyone but the pretzel guy.  But what didn't ever happen was Schenn at center with G and V on wings.  I know that didn't happen.

 

What I do know is that he blew on 5v5.  Simply blew.  So bad that when they had him on wing and blew 5v5 and was a line killer, everyone (most...many?) was saying he was being misused and should be at center.  Conversely, when he was at center and blew 5v5 and was a line killer, everyone (most...many?) was clamouring that he was being misused and should be on wing.

 

And he was a line killer.   He was never put at center with G&V on wing.  Maybe that was the way to go.   But obviously, centering Tarasneko and Schwartz is better than any combination he could have lined with in Philly, save G&V.   On the other hand, both G&V pretty much sucked last year 5v5, so...

 

He's reaping the benefits of not only his linemates but a much stronger down-roster, more established defense, and better goaltending.

 

Not to mention probably better coaching.   

 

If he were here, he would be still killing whatever 5v5 line he was on (let's be honest, unless he was centering G and V, "killing any line he was on" would constitute murdering a corpse), collecting some points on power play, and wasting his time and his apparent ability.

 

In an ideal world, you find a place for the guy.  But when the lottery ball came up as it did, the plan seemingly began to materialize that Coots would move up and Patrick would become heir apparent.  Apparently, "heir" is Canadian for "broken."   But if that was the plan, then Schenn makes little sense on wing or bottom 6 center.   So move him when you have the opportunity to grab 2 first round picks.  Honestly, I'm with those who would have liked using him for the opportunity for a bonafide scoring left winger.  But you can't sneeze at 2 firsts.

 

It seemingly was also tacit admission that this year was going to be growing pains of young defensemen and a couple rookie forwards.  We're experiencing that.  We're actually experiencing worse by injured or suspended veteran defensemen out of the gate and are depending almost entirely on children playing defense and lines scrambled because of key forward injuries.   I think it was clear out of the gate that Lehtera was intended to be a very expensive popcorn fetcher but has been pressed into duty because we still have other deadweight (Weis and Read --the blame for which falls squarely on Hextall) and injury (Patrick).

 

So this isn't a "lost" trade.   You can't simply measure what the player is doing elsewhere.  What they're doing elsewhere has no bearing whatsoever on what value that player would have provided this team had he stayed -- little to none -- which is what is relevant.  Even if you pretend he'd have flourished between Giroux and Vorachek (I think a valid idea), then you're subtracting Couturier's production because instead of what he's doing, he's back to floundering on a lower line.   I'm fairly certain the power play would be better, though.

 

So, it's Schenn (the good, the bad, the ugly) here vs. what was the plan for the roster and 2 first rounders.   I don't consider that a loss.  

 

Want to focus on Lehtera and completely miss the point?  Feel free.  But that's trading Isla Fisher for Kate Beckensale, but you also have to take this mangy mutt....and focusing on the damn mutt.

 

YMMV

[AJgoal]

25 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Want to focus on Lehtera and completely miss the point?  Feel free.  But that's trading Isla Fisher for Kate Beckensale, but you also have to take this mangy mutt....and focusing on the damn mutt.

 

YMMV

 

And I thought I was the only person in the world who knows about Isla Fisher...

[pilldoc]

 

 

30 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Yeah, I don't recall him playing with Giroux and Voracek, either.  It may have happened, since they had him play with just about everyone but the pretzel guy.  But what didn't ever happen was Schenn at center with G and V on wings.  I know that didn't happen.

 

What I do know is that he blew on 5v5.  Simply blew.  So bad that when they had him on wing and blew 5v5 and was a line killer, everyone (most...many?) was saying he was being misused and should be at center.  Conversely, when he was at center and blew 5v5 and was a line killer, everyone (most...many?) was clamouring that he was being misused and should be on wing.

 

And he was a line killer.   He was never put at center with G&V on wing.  Maybe that was the way to go.   But obviously, centering Tarasneko and Schwartz is better than any combination he could have lined with in Philly, save G&V.   On the other hand, both G&V pretty much sucked last year 5v5, so...

 

He's reaping the benefits of not only his linemates but a much stronger down-roster, more established defense, and better goaltending.

 

Not to mention probably better coaching.   

 

If he were here, he would be still killing whatever 5v5 line he was on (let's be honest, unless he was centering G and V, "killing any line he was on" would constitute murdering a corpse), collecting some points on power play, and wasting his time and his apparent ability.

 

In an ideal world, you find a place for the guy.  But when the lottery ball came up as it did, the plan seemingly began to materialize that Coots would move up and Patrick would become heir apparent.  Apparently, "heir" is Canadian for "broken."   But if that was the plan, then Schenn makes little sense on wing or bottom 6 center.   So move him when you have the opportunity to grab 2 first round picks.  Honestly, I'm with those who would have liked using him for the opportunity for a bonafide scoring left winger.  But you can't sneeze at 2 firsts.

 

It seemingly was also tacit admission that this year was going to be growing pains of young defensemen and a couple rookie forwards.  We're experiencing that.  We're actually experiencing worse by injured or suspended veteran defensemen out of the gate and are depending almost entirely on children playing defense and lines scrambled because of key forward injuries.   I think it was clear out of the gate that Lehtera was intended to be a very expensive popcorn fetcher but has been pressed into duty because we still have other deadweight (Weis and Read --the blame for which falls squarely on Hextall) and injury (Patrick).

 

So this isn't a "lost" trade.   You can't simply measure what the player is doing elsewhere.  What they're doing elsewhere has no bearing whatsoever on what value that player would have provided this team had he stayed -- little to none -- which is what is relevant.  Even if you pretend he'd have flourished between Giroux and Vorachek (I think a valid idea), then you're subtracting Couturier's production because instead of what he's doing, he's back to floundering on a lower line.   I'm fairly certain the power play would be better, though.

 

So, it's Schenn (the good, the bad, the ugly) here vs. what was the plan for the roster and 2 first rounders.   I don't consider that a loss.  

 

Want to focus on Lehtera and completely miss the point?  Feel free.  But that's trading Isla Fisher for Kate Beckensale, but you also have to take this mangy mutt....and focusing on the damn mutt.

 

YMMV

 

 

Rux, again you put into words the very essence of this trade and the life of Schenn as a Flyer.  None of us and I mean none of us expected Schenn to flourish as he has in St. Louis.  I've been around sports a long time in my life.   I just don't understand the need to always "Grade" a draft or determine "who won" a trade.  It is really is a matter of opinion and discussion for the media pundits only. 

 

With the regard to Schenn, can it just simply be that Hexy and company decided, either rightly or wrongly, that Schenn no longer fit in the Flyers plans or that he just didn't mesh with the other players around him while he was on the ice.  Hexy saw an opportunity to get back into the 1st Round and obtain another conditional 2018 1st Round Draft pick.  Nothing more and nothing less.  As has been mentioned numerous times above, for whatever reason he has a connection with Schwarz and Tarasenko that he did not have here and for the moment he is succeeding with the Blues.

 

Let's play the flip side here for a moment, what if he was having a terrible year with the Blues.  Then there are those on here who would have been in the "I told you so" camp.  Either way it is a catch -22 situation with regard to Schenn and the Flyers.

 

As I mentioned before back when the trade occurred, I believe Hexy saw an opportunity to trade back into the 1st Round and obtaining another 1st Round pick, while only giving up a player whom I believed he felt no longer fit into the Flyers plan moving forward.

 

So yeah right now Schenn is performing, but I believe whole heartedly Hexy was looking towards the future and that is were many Flyer fans have issues.  Many want instant success and are tired of waiting for Hexy's plan to come to fruition.  I get it I really do.  I do however expect to see some results here in the next year or two.

 

That is all .....

 

[radoran]

Schenn made his mark as a junior player at center. He was "the best player not in the NHL" as a center. 

 

So the Flyers played him at wing and gave him center shots with players who were clearly lesser choice.

 

Now he's  excelling at center with two tremendously talented wingers.

 

Shocker?

 

In all honesty, I'm NOT surprised with this. 

 

I also don't "miss" Schenn and hope that the two late round first rounders pan out for the Flyers.

 

Time will tell...

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, icehole said:

I think you can judge year to year.  So far Hextall has failed at putting a good product on the ice.  That's 3 or 4 years of failure.  I can't tell you his batch of draft picks will be failures in 3 years, but you can't tell me they will be successful either.  Until Hextall's plan starts to produce, he is a failure in my book.

 

You're not wrong. I think it's fair to look at Hex's work since he's been around.

 

2014-15 (Hex comes in during the off season)

 

Hex trades Hartnell for Umberger. Hartnell is clearly the better player, but he's getting older and is on contract for too long. Umberger, though a lesser player, would be off the books much faster to make cap space. Hartnell goes on to produce reasonably well for Columbus. He had 39 pts last season for Nashville.

 

I remember being unsure about this move when it was made. I'm still kind of unsure about it now. This would be the last year of Hartnell's contract. He had seasons of 60, 49, and 37 pts since he left. We've had a carrousel on the LW over that time. Having him may actually have helped alleviate some of that issue. My guess is he was shipped in part because of the forthcoming Voracek contract, which I also find problematic. On that note, Voracek is signed to a big contract that garners him elite dollars.

 

Hex also ships Timmo to Chicago, which was a solid move imo. It gave Timmo a cup -- he definitely deserved it -- and we got a pick back. Solid. Finally, he tossed a much maligned Coburn to Tampa for Gudas and a pick. I like one as well. I don't think Coburn is much better than Gudas all told, and we got a pick out of it.

 

In all, I'll give Ron a C for the season.

 

2015-16 (his first full season as GM)

 

Dave Hakstol is brought in as head coach after a very successful career at the college level. The team made the playoffs, only to be beat by a very strong Caps team. Hex brings in Medvedev from the KHL. He also drafts both Provo and TK. He ships out Grossmann and the Pronger contract for Sam Gagner and a pick, and Rinaldo for a 3rd. He then signs Ryan White, resigns Vandevelde, and brings in Neuvirth.

 

Hakstol looked good on paper. I can't say I'm super happy with what he's accomplished in his time here, but I do understand the signing. It made sense. Medvedev was alright. He was cheap and we needed an extra pair of legs. Provo was a slam dunk. TK has shown flashes of brilliance and may turn into a great player in his own right. The Grossman and Pronger deal was a stroke of genius, as was offloading Rinaldo for anything more than a bag of pucks. I liked White and Vandevelde was vanilla but serviceable.

 

Finally, he tosses VLC and Luke Schenn to LA for Weal and a pick. I like this move as well. VLC was well passed his prime, and Luke was no big loss imo. Having VLC off the books makes this a good move.

 

To top it all off, Ghost works his way into the line up as a call up and makes much the NHL his personal ****h for the better part of the season.

 

Overall, I'd say this was a pretty great year for Hex. He definitely won me over that season. Looking back, it was still a great set of moves. I'd give him an A grade here easy.

 

2016-17 (last season)

 

The team misses the playoffs again. Cousins and Manning see close to full time action. White and Gagner are dropped. Weise and Boyd Gordon are brought in to shore up the lines. Filppula is added to the roster after a bunch of moves all over the place.

 

This was a pretty lame year all around. Hex really didn't do much, instead preferring to adopt a wait-and-see approach with the young guns. Provo solidifies himself as a likely future norris contender. Ghost regresses considerably from his rookie season. Many of the games are largely boring affairs, as the team struggles to score let alone win.

 

Potentially the beginning of disillusionment for many of us here. Hex didn't really mess anything up, he just didn't do much to begin with. Patrick was a gimme and isn't worth mentioning imo. I'll give Ron a D overall for the season.

 

2017-18

 

I'd say it's still too early to judge this season. It's not looking particularly good right now, but I do like seeing so many young faces in the line up finally. What they show us this year is almost certainly going to be improved in the foreseeable future.

 

The only big move so far is Schenn for a pair of first round picks. As I mentioned before, Schenn was a guy who contributed only on the pp and never seemed to fit anywhere in the line up. I can see why moving him for two first rounders makes complete sense.

 

That said, at the moment he looks like a player reborn. The question then becomes: Why was he never so good for us here? Is it a systems thing, a coaching thing, something else? He's not a young pup by any stretch. Players generally don't go from middle six to elite at 26 years old.

 

At this point, I'm still willing to give Hex some time. I'm souring much quicker on Hakstol though. I get that rookies will have green moments, but the team doesn't look any better than last season, and that's not good. We have one line producing at a decent clip, and the rest look lifeless. Would having Schenn right now make the current situation any different? Logic suggests probably not. So what do STL have that we don't?

[pilldoc]

@elmatus

 

Another great post and summary of Hexy's tenure here.

 

So what does STL have that the Flyers don't .....

 

I'm just gonna throw this out there... a viable Head Coach with NHL experience and who has a viable NHL system...And no I'm not talking about the Craig Berube's of the world.

 

[Mad Dog]

I am really not sure how much of his success is truly on him.  His two linemates are Tarasenko & Schwartz - two sensational players.  A lot in NHL is about finding synergy and chemistry.  He found one.  I'd like to see more before I declare him a steal for the Blues.  I'd like to see what he can do if Tarasenko goes down.  I'd say the jury is still open... 

[pilldoc]

19 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

I am really not sure how much of his success is truly on him.  His two linemates are Tarasenko & Schwartz - two sensational players.  A lot in NHL is about finding synergy and chemistry.  He found one.  I'd like to see more before I declare him a steal for the Blues.  I'd like to see what he can do if Tarasenko goes down.  I'd say the jury is still open... 

 

Agree... and I might add I want to see what Schenn does in the playoffs....just keeping the jury open as you say....

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

And I thought I was the only person in the world who knows about Isla Fisher...

Love Isla Fisher. Especially Definitely Maybe period, but also Now You See Me. 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

That said, at the moment he looks like a player reborn. The question then becomes: Why was he never so good for us here? Is it a systems thing, a coaching thing, something else? He's not a young pup by any stretch. Players generally don't go from middle six to elite at 26 years old.

That, right there, is the crux of the whole thing, isn't it? 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

@elmatus

 

Another great post and summary of Hexy's tenure here.

 

So what does STL have that the Flyers don't .....

 

I'm just gonna throw this out there... a viable Head Coach with NHL experience and who has a viable NHL system...And no I'm not talking about the Craig Berube's of the world.

 

Well, they also have a much more mature team that resulted from going through the stage the Flyers are going through several years ago. 

 

We're just in the beginning stages of the retool (it's a rebuild no matter what they say) hitting the NHL. I don't think you realistically expect much more than this. 

 

And I'm sorry, but Schenn doesn't change the fortunes of this current team. 

 

But we always have to have someone who we unrealistically think would be the savior if only.  Williams, Upshall (good God), Schenn.   I think we're about where we should expect but hampered by injuries/suspensions to the only 2 veteran defensemen we have and jumbled lines and quite possibly the wrong coach.  

[pilldoc]

7 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

That, right there, is the crux of the whole thing, isn't it? 

 

Yup... and if we can correctly answer that question... we could potentially solve a lot of this teams woes.....

 

Now the real trick is trying to decipher what the real answer is....

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, pilldoc said:

 

Yup... and if we can correctly answer that question... we could potentially solve a lot of this teams woes.....

 

Now the real trick is trying to decipher what the real answer is....

This is completely an opinion statement and anyone else is welcome to theirs, but for me the answer is wholeheartedly, "stay the course." 

 

With the exception of jettison the coach. I mean, he only has what he has to work with so it's not entirely fair, but I'm not sure he isn't in over his head. 

[pilldoc]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Well, they also have a much more mature team that resulted from going through the stage the Flyers are going through several years ago. 

 

We're just in the beginning stages of the retool (it's a rebuild no matter what they say) hitting the NHL. I don't think you realistically expect much more than this. 

 

And I'm sorry, but Schenn doesn't change the fortunes of this current team. 

 

But we always have to have someone who we unrealistically think would be the savior if only.  Williams, Upshall (good God), Schenn.   I think we're about where we should expect but hampered by injuries/suspensions to the only 2 veteran defensemen we have and jumbled lines and quite possibly the wrong coach.  

 

Again.... wholeheartedly agree.

 

Makes you realize how bad this team really was under the guidance of Homer. 

[pilldoc]

7 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

This is completely an opinion statement and anyone else is welcome to theirs, but for me the answer is wholeheartedly, "stay the course." 

 

With the exception of jettison the coach. I mean, he only has what he has to work with so it's not entirely fair, but I'm not sure he isn't in over his head. 

 

With the right assistant coaches, Hak could have learned the NHL.

However the one issue I do have with Hexy is that from a coaches perspective, Hexy has not surrounded Hak with the appropriate assistant coaches helping him adjust to the NHL. Again that is my opinion only.

 

So yeah... I totally understand your POV.

[JR Ewing]

Schenn is a good player, and that line is having a great ride, but they will NOT keep going on like this.

 

Brayden Schenn

CorsiFor% - 57%

GoalsFor% - 75%

 

Right now everything is going in. Schwartz won't continue to put almost 1/4 of his shots in the net as the season goes on, and they won't be able to keep putting up Goal% 25-30% above the amount they have possession.

 

Blues fans: enjoy it while it lasts, because right now they're white hot.