Trade: Gudas traded for Niskanen

[vis]

21 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Someone needs to explain why we're retaining salary to increase our cap AND get older.

Not too worked up about the dollars.  It's one year.  I just question whether he tried to negotiate hard on the point or at all.  His mentality is if the trade is "good enough," why bother fighting over other stuff if it doesn't have a significant impact.  Some guys want every dollar, some guys are happy with a good return, even if they leave something on the table.

 

21 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Ultimately, I don't like it because it's starting to smell like we have (another) GM that bids against himself when there's no need to.

That's my concern.  Actually, it's more of a concern regarding the entire organization.

 

21 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I don't think Nisk plays on the top pair.  If he starts there, he won't last, I don't think.  He's going to fall like a rock down the lineup and will again be a vet slipping in and out of the lineup.

I think he will be on the top pair this year.  Remains to be seen thereafter.  I also worry about a quick drop off.

[brelic]

46 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Now, do I think he'll be a huge upgrade over Gudas? Not really. I think they're both pretty good honestly. Different players though. It's entirely possible Niskanen is more in line with the type of defense our new coaching staff want to implement. Given how anemic our defense was last year, I'm not inclined to argue much with new defensive strategies.

 

He was the top PKer in Washington. I lost count of how many times Fletch mentioned getting help to improve the PK, and both Hayes and Niskanen would fit that bill.

 

[brelic]

6 minutes ago, vis said:

Not too worked up about the dollars.  It's one year.  I just question whether he tried to negotiate hard on the point or at all.  His mentality is if the trade is "good enough," why bother fighting over other stuff if it doesn't have a significant impact.  Some guys want every dollar, some guys are happy with a good return, even if they leave something on the table.

 

 

I mentioned in another post that maybe the ask was Gudas and a mid-round pick or a B/C prospect. 

 

If that's the case, retaining some salary for one season is actually a smart way to protect assets.

[Howie58]

Normally I would say trading for a higher-cost, older player is screwy. But, we are changing paradigms/coach, so this will be allowed to pass my sniff test.  It is short-term on the pick up, and it allows a slot opening in coming years.  

[OH1FlyersFan]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Gudas doesn’t sit a lot.  He gets suspended maybe, but he doesn’t cause a ton of PP’s against. 

It's just an impression, but his penalties seem to come at the most inopportune times.  But, you're right, his trend is down over the last few seasons with the Flyers.  Total of 579 over his career.  With the Flyers: 116, 93, 83, 63 PIM over the last four seasons.  For comparison purposes, Orpik has 972, then Seabrook and Burns at 653 and 651, then a bunch of current players in the low 600's, then Gudas. 

 

You raise a good point on suspensions.  Penalty minutes are one thing, but when you have to sit out an entire game, multiple games, because of a suspension, how many minutes off the ice has that added up to???

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, vis said:

 

I was initially put off with the retained salary, but it's only for one year and the Flyers have room.

 

I was/am too but i guess i feel better when it is offset by waiving Mcdud or buying him out.

 

He will be given a chance to earn a spot in the top 4 either beside Provorov or Sanheim.

 

I think Myers will get slot in the other inthe top 4.

 

Provorov/Niskanen

Sanheim/Myers

Morin/Ghost

Hagg 

 

Will that be an improvement guess we'll see.

[ruxpin]

41 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

He was the top PKer in Washington. I lost count of how many times Fletch mentioned getting help to improve the PK, and both Hayes and Niskanen would fit that bill.

 

That's a really good point about the PK. 

I don't dislike the player swap.  Others are right about the dollar amount on the retention not being much. It's just weird as a concept. 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

Ultimately, I don't like it because it's starting to smell like we have (another) GM that bids against himself when there's no need to.

 

I understand how you feel this way and i admit i am concerned with it a little to.

 

But it's also unfair to think that when we don't know any of the details of how long he tried and how many times he tried other options.

 

All we have is to positively or negatively assume...like i said everyone is entitled to feel how they do about it.

 

I'm on the fence right now proudly. I hope it works out for the best....it's all i can do.

[elmatus]

35 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

He was the top PKer in Washington. I lost count of how many times Fletch mentioned getting help to improve the PK, and both Hayes and Niskanen would fit that bill.

 

 

Maybe, but WSH really wasn't a great PK team last season. 

 

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad acquisition at all, I just don't think it's the kind of trade that has a major impact on a team. I'm honestly not sure why anyone would. Niskanen has been a solid NHL dman his whole career, but I don't think anyone has ever regarded him as any kind of high impact player.

 

He averages somewhere between 20-30 pts in a given year. He ranges smack in the middle around the 50 mark for possession metrics. If plus/minus is your thing, he's usually a plus. He's not the greatest PP quarterback, but then we don't really need him to be. He's not prone to taking penalties or making too many errors overall. At the same time, I'm not sure he's the guy you put on when you need a clutch performance to win you a game.

 

He's fine. The trade is fine. But if you're asking me whether I think bringing in Niskanen constitutes a major change for the team, I'm afraid the answer is no. Is he better than Gudas? I don't know. Maybe? He's won the cup. I personally think that metric is overblown, but it's true of Niskanen anyway. Is he a good mentor-type for our young kids? I dunno. I've never met him. I hope so?

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I was/am too but i guess i feel better when it is offset by waiving Mcdud or buying him out.

 

He will be given a chance to earn a spot in the top 4 either beside Provorov or Sanheim.

 

I think Myers will get slot in the other inthe top 4.

 

Provorov/Niskanen

Sanheim/Myers

Morin/Ghost

Hagg 

 

Will that be an improvement guess we'll see.

Your pairings are what I would prefer. I'm also okay with flipping Morin for Hagg, though I would think that jeans Morin would probably not have worked out. I'm hoping he does. 

[vis]

47 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I mentioned in another post that maybe the ask was Gudas and a mid-round pick or a B/C prospect. 

 

If that's the case, retaining some salary for one season is actually a smart way to protect assets.

Wouldn't have a problem if that was the case.

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I'm also okay with flipping Morin for Hagg, though I would think that jeans Morin would probably not have worked out.

 

I think Morin will bring more to the lineup. Hagg in my opinion is not very good in his own end i have seen him time and time get beat by the guy out front and he doesn't find the loose puck and if he does he panics with it and does something bad like turn it over again.

 

I want to try something new give Sam a chance. Hagg could make nice trade bait.

[King Knut]

26 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

It's just an impression, but his penalties seem to come at the most inopportune times.  But, you're right, his trend is down over the last few seasons with the Flyers.  Total of 579 over his career.  With the Flyers: 116, 93, 83, 63 PIM over the last four seasons.  For comparison purposes, Orpik has 972, then Seabrook and Burns at 653 and 651, then a bunch of current players in the low 600's, then Gudas. 

 

You raise a good point on suspensions.  Penalty minutes are one thing, but when you have to sit out an entire game, multiple games, because of a suspension, how many minutes off the ice has that added up to???

 

His suspensions might at least have made room for Myers and Morin to get minutes  

[OccamsRazor]

Well i know he will have to change numbers no way they give him Howe's #2.

 

[AJgoal]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 

Can you, or anyone, tell me?

 

I thought the NMC, etc., basically dies with the trade from the original team.  Is that not the case?

 

Only if waived IIRC. As far as expansion, only NMCs are an issue. A player with an NTC can be exposed.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I'm liking that Fletcher at least has a pulse. 

 

He saw some areas to address and he's starting to do it. It's been nothing exorbitant or expensive. The retention on Gudas by way of $1.005 million is a drop in the bucket for a team with over $30 million in cap space. The move also allows Morin and his meanness to get into the lineup. Don't forget that Morin is a plus in terms of mobility and it also allows the Flyers to move Hagg in another deal. 

 

I get that Niskanen had a couple of down years in Washington, but this is a guy who plays 20+ minutes a night and is going to free up a bit of the defensive burden on Provorov. Provorov has been played so heavily the past three seasons that it took a toll on him last year. Getting Ivan under 24 minutes a night and increasing the ice time of Sanheim and Meyers should be a priority going forward.

 

Hopefully this also shows Hayes that the Flyers are serious about turning this boat around and if they can get his name on a deal, that's huge too.  

[Howie58]

I wonder if this part of a Ghost trade departure?  He goes, and we have someone short-term to fill a gap until the youngins progress?

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Hmm...very interesting Flyers fans.

Here is how I see this: One of those trades that, at a lower level, addresses each team's needs, short term anyways.

 

Flyers upgrade in some areas with Matt Niskanen in the offensive, smarts, and skating department, but lose out a bit on overall toughness, hitting, and a lower cap hit.

I think, for whatever time Niskanen has left on his contract, he SHOULD help Philly. Again, he skates better than Gudas, is quicker, has more experience, won a Cup, and bring a bit more to the table in terms of point production than big ol Radko.
That said, Niskanen IS on the downside of his production (going by his numbers over the last couple seasons), and while I said he is an offensive upgrade over Gudas, he still is NOT an eye popping point producer (never was)….just steady to the tune of about 35-40'ish points per season, compared to Radko's 20-25, give or take.

 

Niskanen still turns the puck over a bit more under duress than I am sure fans would like, but then again, Radko did the same...pressure big Gudas, and he'd cough it up pretty handily as well.....difference being, I think fans expect better from Niskanen in that department.

 

Also, as some mentioned, having a tried and true vet like him alongside some of the younger Flyer defensemen can only be a good thing AND Niskanen, when healthy is a big minutes eater, which means if a guy like AMac is still around (1 year left), The Fly shouldn't have to run him out there as much.

 

Of course, the Flyers do give Washington the younger player with still a smidge left of improvement to his game that can still be attained (Radko, IMO, has come a LONG way from his brainless Neanderthal ways from the AHL and early days in Tampa Bay).
Gudas does have the lower cap hit and will be a UFA sooner than Niskanen, and with the combination of Tom Wilson and Radko Gudas, the Caps have a very nasty combo up front and on the blue line that can wreak havoc with other teams.

Caps get out from under Niskanen's contract while getting the discounted Gudas and Washington will NOT miss Niskanen's middling production because they still are pretty top heavy and have other guys on the blue line who can at least work as units to fill in whatever Niskanen did for them.

Overall, a decent hockey move for both sides.
Sure, Matt Niskanen isn't the big tremendous boost Flyers fans may have been wanting, but at the end of the day, larger cap hit aside, he does represent an overall improvement on Gudas in terms of being a more complete hockey player at this time.

 

Not a bad Chuck Fletcher move.
Look at it this way.... Fletcher COULD have dealt with Buffalo and tried getting Marco Scandella (I like Marco, but he has been declining fast the last two seasons!), or he could have dealt with some other club looking to unload some unspectacular defenseman on Philly, while prying away the still viable 2nd / 3rd pair guy in Gudas from Philly.

Chuck did well in getting you guys a proven winner, albeit one that isn't quite the same player he was during his Pittsburgh and early Washington runs.

[ruxpin]

So, I've had some time to digest this.

 

I've always been fine with the players involved.  It's an upgrade on defense and Niskonen can help on the penalty kill whereas Gudas should never be anywhere near it.   

 

I liked Gudas, but he was expendable and not the same player he was before the league and team conspired to castrate him.   I thought he did a nice job this past year kind of reinventing himself and playing competently with the league/team handcuffs and leg irons.

 

But really, Niskonen slots in better on the top two pairs, at least for the duration of his contract.

 

The salary retention bothers me but if the above is true, the cash value really isn't at all a big deal.  If it gets Sanheim the opportunity to move back to his natural side and maybe even pair with Myers, that's just added bonus.

 

I completely understand this is the first salvo in what will likely be a bunch of moves, so who knows how this all shakes out at this point.  That said, the Flyers play the Capitals a bunch of times, not even counting a potential playoff matchup.   Do the Flyers, as currently constituted, have an answer for a team with both Wilson--always about 5 minutes shy of ax-murdering someone--and Gudas?   I don't think so.

 

All in all, a decent opening salvo.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by ruxpin

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

with the combination of Tom Wilson and Radko Gudas, the Caps have a very nasty combo up front and on the blue line that can wreak havoc with other teams.

 

Yeah.  Hadn't read  your post yet.

[Podein25]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

If plus/minus is your thing, he's usually a plus.

 

It is! So I'm 100% ok with this move! 

 

 

[brelic]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

So, I've had some time to digest this.

 

I've always been fine with the players involved.  It's an upgrade on defense and Niskonen can help on the penalty kill whereas Gudas should never be anywhere near it.   

 

I liked Gudas, but he was expendable and not the same player he was before the league and team conspired to castrate him.   I thought he did a nice job this past year kind of reinventing himself and playing competently with the league/team handcuffs and leg irons.

 

But really, Niskonen slots in better on the top two pairs, at least for the duration of his contract.

 

The salary retention bothers me but if the above is true, the cash value really isn't at all a big deal.  If it gets Sanheim the opportunity to move back to his natural side and maybe even pair with Myers, that's just added bonus.

 

I completely understand this is the first salvo in what will likely be a bunch of moves, so who knows how this all shakes out at this point.  That said, the Flyers play the Capitals a bunch of times, not even counting a potential playoff matchup.   Do the Flyers, as currently constituted, have an answer for a team with both Wilson--always about 5 minutes shy of ax-murdering someone--and Gudas?   I don't think so.

 

All in all, a decent opening salvo.

 

 

 

I think there's another move on defense coming. 

 

Like you say, opening salvo. 

[caluso]

9 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

All good stuff. The M-NTC with Seattle expac is the only part that bothers me some.

What is "good" about acquiring an older, worse, player AND retaining salary.

 

Lose, lose and lose.

 

Typical Flyer deal. 

[elmatus]

28 minutes ago, caluso said:

What is "good" about acquiring an older, worse, player AND retaining salary.

 

Lose, lose and lose.

 

Typical Flyer deal. 

 

You're speaking as if Radko Gudas was a Norris candidate. I liked Radko well enough, but I hardly think losing him is much of a blow. He has a penchant for brain farts and getting out of position to try and make the highlight reel with a mid-ice hit. Let's not pretend he's more than what he is.

 

Honestly, the difference between these two as far as how "good" they are is pretty marginal. They're different players for sure, with different styles, but I'd hesitate to say Niskanen is a worse player. He is older; I'll give you that. But his contract is fine for the player he is. They do have a different play style though. My guess is Niskanen's more traditional play is closer to what AV and co are looking for. 

 

So what's good about it? I honestly can't say for sure it is good. I don't think it's bad though. More to my point: I don't really think it matters a whole lot. They're both reasonably effective NHL defensemen. It's pretty meh as far as trades go.

 

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, caluso said:

What is "good" about acquiring an older, worse, player AND retaining salary.

 

Lose, lose and lose.

 

Typical Flyer deal. 

I don't get how the assessment "worse player" is made.  I'll give you older. And higher cost. 

 

Worse? You haven't seen one or the other of them play. 

 

Before the end of Niskanen's contact, this may be worth revisiting.