Jump to content

Flyers: State of the organization...


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 225
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

It’s gotten so bad, even I’m going to post.     I read this thread with a lot of interest and agree with the assessment that the team is clearly worse than it was when Fletcher took over.  To the Wild fans that warned us, what can I say other than that he’s the old boy network running, imagination-less, plausible Buddhist solution proffering organization wrecker he was in MN. I cannot imagine him not being fired at the end of the season.  He’s only still here because this mess is of such

Most hopeless and helpless I've felt about the team in my lifetime. Even when they really sucked for short periods of time in the past, at least they looked like they were competing. (The Farwell years and post 1st lock out). There were also glimmers of hope, Lindros on the come , the Calder cup winning AHL team. But lately there's nothing. Injuries have played a part for sure. It seems every decent prospect and moves to acquire players designed to improve the team have 

This doesn't sound like a rebuild to me given the dearth of talent throughout the org.  I think 3-4 years at least.  I just don't see enough talent coming quickly enough while Couts is still a high level player.   This has been the Flyers problem for 10 years: they are half-pregnant.  They have a few good players (Giroux, Simmons, and Voracek through most of the 2010s) and then the rest of the team is filled in with has-beens, never-weres, or youth expected to do too much too soon, mos

Posted Images

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah in the ECHL pretty sure they didn't draft him to be 23 in the ECHL so yeah he should look good.

I’ll bet I’d he was with the Flyers ECHL team he would suck, we are so good at developing players .

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

If we keep someone like Couts or Ellis (or anyone else close to 30), it seems to me like we are repeating that mistake.

 

It's a little late for that now.

 

I'm afraid you stuck with them.

 

Unless you want to send some draft picks for someone to take those contracts off your hands?

 

Well moving more picks in going to hender a rebuild any way.

 

Not sure who or how they fix this cluster ****.

 

A hot mess...

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I’ll bet I’d he was with the Flyers ECHL team he would suck, we are so good at developing players .

 

Oh yes you are probably right.

 

I am at a loss on what it will take to fix this dumpster fire.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It might take forcing Scott,  Comcast, etc…to sell the team, take the Flyers name away and starting over. I mean, that is a.. one of the…worst case scenarios but hopefully Flyers fans force the isdue at dome point. Nothing much better than turning arrogant, ignorant, misguided rich people… into poor ones.
 

Maybe we can be the next Vegas, and be overwhelmingly successful. They’ve been overehelmingly successful. What I’m saying is, Philly is the third largest American hockey market. Whether Bettman hates us or not, I guarantee you Philly gets awarded another franchise. At this point, I want Philly to win another Cup and I don’t care if the Flyer organization. They’ve slapped Ed Snider AND Ed Snider since his passing, in the face.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Honestly, what makes this infuriating is that it doesn't take much to fix this. Everything starts at the top though. Dave Scott needs to clean house. Get rid of all the senior, mid and lower level management players. Get rid of all the senior advisors. Start by hiring one guy as the voice for all hockey operations. Once that's in place, let them hire their GM and let their GM have carte blanche to do the job. Said GM can bring in his coaching staff, minor league coaching staff and implement a plan in which all coaching staffs are on the same page. Create the Flyers identity from there. No more "Flyers Hockey" mantra garbage. Put a legitimate plan in place.

 

Once that's done, said new GM needs to do a thorough and complete assessment of the organization. From scouting to player development, everything gets a once over. After that, said GM looks at the current roster and assesses who stays and who goes. Once that's done, it's up to the head coach to determine who plays where. For far too long, EVERYTHING in Philadelphia with regards to players and where they play has been based on contracts. No more. Players earn their spots in the lineup. Not only that, but they need to identify who is going to be the core going forward. Maybe nobody on the team is going to be a core player. Maybe there's going to be six or seven players who are identified as core players. But they need to identify what their core is.

 

Once that's complete and everything has been identified, it's time to roll up the sleeves, get to work and start moving players out. No more sentimentality to players. It's time to be ruthless and brutal. It's going to break fans' hearts, but for far too long, the Flyers have had this immense sentimental attachment to players because 'they've been in the trenches for us.' It's dumb way to do business. But I digress. Anyways, after moving players out, the goal should be clearing salary, getting prospects and picks. There's going to be times when they're going to have to eat salary (I'm looking at guys like JVR, Hayes, and maybe Atkinson) to get something decent in return. 

 

They're going to tank and they're going to tank hard. The Flyers will need to let fans know that a rebuild is coming and that it needs to be done and that there are going to be some tough times ahead. Which leads me to the most important point in all of this - BE HONEST WITH EVERYONE. Telling everyone "we're close and just a move or two will put us over" has been the most dishonest ******** they've sold to people and fans have bought it. It's time to be honest. It's time to let everyone know that the retools haven't gone as planned and that while there are some good players, the fact is, there are no groundbreakers or difference makers in the lineup or franchise. 

 

The fact that I came up with this in 15 minutes should speak in volumes about how much crap there is in the Flyers organization. Everything right now is toxic. Dave Scott needs to go to his bosses at Comcast and be honest with them as well - a rebuild needs to be done in the worst way. Not a retool, but a full on rebuild.

 

And honestly, if a new GM comes in and says that he needs to move Provorov or Sanheim or Hart or Konecny or Couturier, I'm cool with that. But for years, this club has literally thrown **** at a wall to see what sticks and have built upon. It's time to end that nonsense and get into the 21st century. So, a five step approach:

 

1) Gut everything (team and management)

2) Identify your core and build from there (trades, draft, and sign free agents to compliment, not be part of the core)

3) Ensure everyone is on the same page in terms of player development

4) Continually re-assess what's working and whatever isn't working, identify why it isn't working and either fix it or implement something else

5) STAY THE COURSE in terms of your plan. Don't deviate or try to speed things up. Build appropriately, build smart and build with a long term goal. 

 

Sorry if it's long winded, but I've been a fan for 40 years and it's time to adapt. For far too long, the franchise has hung onto 73-74 and 74-75 and has used that to not rebuild. No more. Be proud of the past, but don't let the past determine how you build things. Things change. Unfortunately, this club hasn't.

Great post, I agree with everything except the first thing you said: that it is going to be easy.  It is going to be very hard, take at least 5 years and those 5 years aren't going to be fun to watch.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Great post, I agree with everything except the first thing you said: that it is going to be easy.  It is going to be very hard, take at least 5 years and those 5 years aren't going to be fun to watch.

 

But it's not going to happen not why everyone keeps kidding themselves.

 

The only thing they are going to do is waiting the end of the season and fire Yeo and hire Tocchet. It's all they are going to convince themselves he can fix it.

 

But hey don't let me keep you guys from holding out for hope.

 

I'm done.

 

:BrownBag:

 

 

 

Edited by OccamsRazor
bourbon isn't working
Link to post
Share on other sites

Holding out hope?  Of course it's not going to happen.  I hope the team loses every game the rest of the year.

 

I seem to remember you were the one that thought this was a playoff team after the offseason changes.  Talk about hope!

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Great post, I agree with everything except the first thing you said: that it is going to be easy.  It is going to be very hard, take at least 5 years and those 5 years aren't going to be fun to watch.

I think the plan is easy. It really is. What makes everything hard is that ownership has their respective head in the ground and they're being sold a false bill of goods by the senior advisors, mainly Holmgren. 

 

The fact that the Wachovia Center isn't selling out and that there's an issue getting season ticket holders to renew speaks in volumes. Do I believe everyone is on thin ice? I don't know. Should they? Absolutely. 

 

That's going to be the key to the rebuild - getting those advisors out of there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Honestly, what makes this infuriating is that it doesn't take much to fix this. Everything starts at the top though. Dave Scott needs to clean house. Get rid of all the senior, mid and lower level management players. Get rid of all the senior advisors. Start by hiring one guy as the voice for all hockey operations. Once that's in place, let them hire their GM and let their GM have carte blanche to do the job. Said GM can bring in his coaching staff, minor league coaching staff and implement a plan in which all coaching staffs are on the same page. Create the Flyers identity from there. No more "Flyers Hockey" mantra garbage. Put a legitimate plan in place.

 

Once that's done, said new GM needs to do a thorough and complete assessment of the organization. From scouting to player development, everything gets a once over. After that, said GM looks at the current roster and assesses who stays and who goes. Once that's done, it's up to the head coach to determine who plays where. For far too long, EVERYTHING in Philadelphia with regards to players and where they play has been based on contracts. No more. Players earn their spots in the lineup. Not only that, but they need to identify who is going to be the core going forward. Maybe nobody on the team is going to be a core player. Maybe there's going to be six or seven players who are identified as core players. But they need to identify what their core is.

 

Once that's complete and everything has been identified, it's time to roll up the sleeves, get to work and start moving players out. No more sentimentality to players. It's time to be ruthless and brutal. It's going to break fans' hearts, but for far too long, the Flyers have had this immense sentimental attachment to players because 'they've been in the trenches for us.' It's dumb way to do business. But I digress. Anyways, after moving players out, the goal should be clearing salary, getting prospects and picks. There's going to be times when they're going to have to eat salary (I'm looking at guys like JVR, Hayes, and maybe Atkinson) to get something decent in return. 

 

They're going to tank and they're going to tank hard. The Flyers will need to let fans know that a rebuild is coming and that it needs to be done and that there are going to be some tough times ahead. Which leads me to the most important point in all of this - BE HONEST WITH EVERYONE. Telling everyone "we're close and just a move or two will put us over" has been the most dishonest ******** they've sold to people and fans have bought it. It's time to be honest. It's time to let everyone know that the retools haven't gone as planned and that while there are some good players, the fact is, there are no groundbreakers or difference makers in the lineup or franchise. 

 

The fact that I came up with this in 15 minutes should speak in volumes about how much crap there is in the Flyers organization. Everything right now is toxic. Dave Scott needs to go to his bosses at Comcast and be honest with them as well - a rebuild needs to be done in the worst way. Not a retool, but a full on rebuild.

 

And honestly, if a new GM comes in and says that he needs to move Provorov or Sanheim or Hart or Konecny or Couturier, I'm cool with that. But for years, this club has literally thrown **** at a wall to see what sticks and have built upon. It's time to end that nonsense and get into the 21st century. So, a five step approach:

 

1) Gut everything (team and management)

2) Identify your core and build from there (trades, draft, and sign free agents to compliment, not be part of the core)

3) Ensure everyone is on the same page in terms of player development

4) Continually re-assess what's working and whatever isn't working, identify why it isn't working and either fix it or implement something else

5) STAY THE COURSE in terms of your plan. Don't deviate or try to speed things up. Build appropriately, build smart and build with a long term goal. 

 

Sorry if it's long winded, but I've been a fan for 40 years and it's time to adapt. For far too long, the franchise has hung onto 73-74 and 74-75 and has used that to not rebuild. No more. Be proud of the past, but don't let the past determine how you build things. Things change. Unfortunately, this club hasn't.

 

Well said and thought out .......I have had many of  the same thoughts.  You just expressed it way better than I ever could have. 

 

Bravo! 

 

Sadly .....deep down what should be done and what will "actually" be done will never equate with this FO.  

Edited by pilldoc
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

The only they are going to do is waiting the end of the season and fire Yeo and hire Tocchet. It's all they are going to convince themselves he can fix it.

 

I'm afraid you're right. Sign Ristolainen, Giroux and possibly buyout JVR (but I doubt it). As long as Ellis has a reasonable shot at playing next year the Flyers will convince themselves they'll be much better next year. And so they will be but that isn't saying much.

  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

@BobbyClarkeFan16

Chuck Fletcher and his staff have completed a review and implemented many changes to address much of what you're suggesting.

They especially paid attention to player development and creating an identity. 

 

In August of 21 there were many a Flyers Daily podcasts that spoke to the organizational changes and make up. Episodes  8/17 , 8/19, 8/29 and 8/31 all mentioned forms of organizational changes, and introduced new behind the scenes people like adding Mike O'Connell to the advisory staff.

Also, I don't think change on the scale you're proposing happens rapidly. So whatever adjustments Chuck made won't be readily evident also having the entire system racked with serious injuries hasn't helped. The guys they want to develop are not playing. 

 

It could have been that Chuck made these suggestions and then Homer and Clarkie said thanks and didn't move on any of them. 

 

I've listened to enough interviews with the man (Fletcher) to understand he's not cool with the team sucking and has ideas of what needs to improve. 

This narrative that Fletcher is some idiot automaton that does the bidding of two alumni stooges just doesn't square with anything I've heard him say publicly. 

 

Also and this is not addressed to you directly.

The fact that the hall of fame ceremony was held at 5:30 pm on a weeknight during a homestand that had two weekend games was tone deaf and idiotic.

I watched the Raiders honor John Madden last night and he hadn't been their coach for 40 years. The way the corporate side has treated the legacy of the team is shameful. 

I don't give two rat's farts about the Kate Smith statue but I do think the cost saving measures that cut loose longtime team alumni ambassadors is shortsighted and obtuse. 

I think this deliberate benign neglect of the team's legacy especially around Ed Snider is another symptom of the franchise's rot.

Edited by mojo1917
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

I'm afraid you're right. Sign Ristolainen, Giroux and possibly buyout JVR (but I doubt it). As long as Ellis has a reasonable shot at playing next year the Flyers will convince themselves they'll be much better next year. And so they will be but that isn't saying much.

To be honest I think JVR will have some value come the trade deadline to a team that needs PP help.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I do think the cost saving measures that cut loose longtime team alumni ambassadors is shortsighted and obtuse. 

 

Can you say more about this? {edit: bc it's interesting and sounds like you have a good perspective]

 

21 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

So whatever adjustments Chuck made won't be readily evident also having the entire system racked with serious injuries hasn't helped. The guys they want to develop are not playing. 

 

and this?

 

My question re: the 2nd quote is - what about the guys that are playing? Who's developing them? Cause it sure looks like the answer is No One.

 

 

Edited by GratefulFlyers
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

Holding out hope?  Of course it's not going to happen.  I hope the team loses every game the rest of the year.

 

I seem to remember you were the one that thought this was a playoff team after the offseason changes.  Talk about hope!

 

Nope show me where I said that.

 

I'll wait for you to find it but you are wrong never once did I say it was a playoff team.

 

I said I Luke some of the additions like Atkinson and Ellis still do.

 

Was weary on Risto due to the history of what fans were saying about him. Wasn't thrilled with all what they gave up but knew Chuckles was trying desperate moves to fix the defense.

 

But thought if the additions worked maybe they get in even mentioned awhile back before their nose dive and coaching firing they were only 4 points out of a wild card slot with 2 games in hand which was true.

 

But never once have I said this is a for sure playoff team.

 

In fact I don't recall ever say these Flyere were "for sure a playoff team since I don't know the year they got bounced by AV and the Rangers.

 

So yeah wrong guy bro...

 

:BrownBag:

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Fizz said:

To be honest I think JVR will have some value come the trade deadline to a team that needs PP help.

 at $7mil cap hit I dunno. The player, sure, but the player + his albatross contract I'm not so sure. But I hope you're right!

 

[edit: oh wait the cap is pro-rated on trades right? So maybe the acquiring team won't have to absorb the full $7mil...?]

 

 

 

 

Edited by GratefulFlyers
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Fizz said:

To be honest I think JVR will have some value come the trade deadline to a team that needs PP help.

 

I'd even pick up 3 mill of his salary this year and next to help this go down.

 

I would do this instead of a buyout.

Link to post
Share on other sites

School me please if the Flyer retained salary - good lord hope not as much as you suggest! - but anyway - they pay that for the life of his contract right? Which counts against the Flyers' cap? Is that how it works? JVR has 1 year left after this one so maybe it's doable - but you'd really be okay with the Flyers paying $3mil next year for him to play somewhere else?

 

you know what....I think I would too! lol. just to get him gone.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

School me please if the Flyer retained salary - good lord hope not as much as you suggest! - but anyway - they pay that for the life of his contract right? Which counts against the Flyers' cap? Is that how it works? JVR has 1 year left after this one so maybe it's doable - but you'd really be okay with the Flyers paying $3mil next year for him to play somewhere else?

 

you know what....I think I would too! lol. just to get him gone.

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/james-van-riemsdyk#results

 

It would cost the Flyers more to buy him out for next season ($4.333M cap hit) than to retain $3M - and they would also get a $1.333M cap hit for 2023-24.

 

Essentially, they could retain up to $4.33M and still do better than they would buying the player out - in terms of cap hit next season.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

@GratefulFlyers

 

RE: Alumni

When I'm on twitter- it's not often anymore, I follow Joe Watson. He's a guy from the 70s and 80s who shows up for almost every "Flyers in the Community " event. He stayed in the area after his career and has been a fixture for a lot of good things the team has done in and around the metro area.

He was "let go" by Comcast, class act that he is, he didn't cast any shade on the organization and said he'll always be a Flyer and he'll be there whenever they want him.

Joe is the kind of person you want around bridge the generations and continue to be a touchstone to the old timers that made the Flyers the Flyers. He is a good bloke.

Comcast decided to cut the funding for the programs that the alumni associate with so guys like Bob Kelly and Joe Watson are just dudes and not official team ambassadors. 

 

As for NHL development. I think it's confidence. 

I don't think guys like Konecny and Provorov are playing with confidence.

I don't know what can be done to help them get it back. It's not like they all- of- the -sudden forgot how to play hockey. 

The confidence gap is team wide, the moment something bad happens this bunch has been panicking and allowing the bad play/luck to snowball into 5 or 10 minutes that lose the game. 

Guys like Ellis, Atkinson, Brassard and even Yandle were supposed to help keep the keel even. But it hasn't worked out. 

Been a frustrating year.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

School me please if the Flyer retained salary - good lord hope not as much as you suggest! - but anyway - they pay that for the life of his contract right? Which counts against the Flyers' cap? Is that how it works? JVR has 1 year left after this one so maybe it's doable - but you'd really be okay with the Flyers paying $3mil next year for him to play somewhere else?

 

you know what....I think I would too! lol. just to get him gone.

 

Yeah I would certainly start with less say pickup 2 mill of his salary to start with and see if that moves the needle and go from there but yes it would be cheaper to pic up salary than to buy him out as @radoran layer out.

 

It is a start and it is debatable I know but 5 mill for JVR isn't that bad for a team with cap space for his skill set but he isn't working here in Philly because he is lazy and streaky and well we have to hope they don't see what we do...

 

...but don't hold your breathe.

 

:BrownBag:

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

But thought if the additions worked maybe they get in even mentioned awhile back before their nose dive and coaching firing they were only 4 points out of a wild card slot with 2 games in hand which was true.

 

They're still "only" five points out, but the script has flipped and they're now chasing the Bruins who have four games in hand on them. Even when they were chasing the Red Wings (still are) the Bruins had games in hand in between them.

 

They're also tied with a Columbus team that has two games in hand on them.

 

Try finding a scenario from practically anybody that had Columbus and Detroit ahead of the Flyers ~35 games into the season...

 

Now the 6-7-8 seeds all have 5+ points and games in hand over the Flyers.

 

The issue for me is that the Flyers still aren't good enough to be a serious competitor for the Cup. They simply don't have the talent - even with Ellis at 100%. They're just back to being the same mediocre bubble playoff team that they've been for 10 years.

 

They just don't have the firepower to score the goals. Columbus has missed ~20 games of Laine and still has 16 more goals than the Flyers, with two games in hand. The Flyers have a worse goal differential than any team in the East other than Montreal. And that includes Buffalo and Ottawa, both of whom actually have games in hand over them.

 

Having a healthy Ellis would make this team better, but it doesn't seem to move the needle enough to put them in the conversation with the cream of the NHL crop.

 

For that matter, in the West they'd be trailing Vancouver by two points and the Canucks with a game in hand for 14th in the Conference.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Need to start first with sorting out the status of our core.

 

I don't know what can be gained by trading Giroux.  You would have to get creative to trade him in such a way that you gain much, let alone not lose. He is a fan favorite and still a good damned player.  So if you trade him for a bunch of bodies, you better make sure those are good prospects and high draft picks. So if the Flyers decide to move away from him at this point, at the very least they need to make sure they are getting quality, not quantity back.  And I won't mind if that quality is a project and doesn't materialize in the next 2 years. Unfortunately, taking into consideration Flyers' history and mindset, I have no confidence that that's what they will do. 

 

Secondly, they need to really dive into what's been plaguing Couturier.  I think we will all agree that what we are seeing this season is a completely transformed player, in the worst possible way.  It was suggested by some here that it's a product of him getting that nice contract.  I sure hope that's not it, because if that's what it was, then "Houston, we have a problem".  He's been put on the IR recently with a mysterious upper body injury.  While it's bad, that would actually explain his beyond abhorrent play this season. But then the question is why the hell they have been waiting so long?  You have your MVP playing injured for most of the season, risking a long-term injury... Why?

 

The rest to me are just moving parts.  Atkinson knows how to score.  Only 2 years ago, the guy scored 69 points in a full season. Konecny and JVR are OK players.  Not horrible, but not particularly valuable, either. You can move them, but realistically speaking, they won't fetch you much of a return. On the teams like St. Louis, Carolina, Dallas, or Florida, they would be playing on the 3rd line, and frankly, that's where they both belong.  But again, the question is what are the Flyers trying to accomplish?  What is their near-term goal?  

 

My biggest concern is I have no faith in the team's management.  Even if they map out a plan of attack, I don't know if they can actually carry it out.  

 

 

Edited by Mad Dog
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@GratefulFlyers

 

RE: Alumni

When I'm on twitter- it's not often anymore, I follow Joe Watson. He's a guy from the 70s and 80s who shows up for almost every "Flyers in the Community " event. He stayed in the area after his career and has been a fixture for a lot of good things the team has done in and around the metro area.

He was "let go" by Comcast, class act that he is, he didn't cast any shade on the organization and said he'll always be a Flyer and he'll be there whenever they want him.

Joe is the kind of person you want around bridge the generations and continue to be a touchstone to the old timers that made the Flyers the Flyers. He is a good bloke.

Comcast decided to cut the funding for the programs that the alumni associate with so guys like Bob Kelly and Joe Watson are just dudes and not official team ambassadors. 

 

As for NHL development. I think it's confidence. 

I don't think guys like Konecny and Provorov are playing with confidence.

I don't know what can be done to help them get it back. It's not like they all- of- the -sudden forgot how to play hockey. 

The confidence gap is team wide, the moment something bad happens this bunch has been panicking and allowing the bad play/luck to snowball into 5 or 10 minutes that lose the game. 

Guys like Ellis, Atkinson, Brassard and even Yandle were supposed to help keep the keel even. But it hasn't worked out. 

Been a frustrating year.

 

 

 

it's the issue of the fact we dont have a consistent impact player like a pronger type not these ok type of players, they need a player that will change this franchise like heck yeah i will want to play for that guy. we just dont have that on this roster, we havent had that since pronger retired.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...