"How the Rangers Got Back to the NHL Playoffs"

[elmatus]

5 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I think when he came in, he thought the players were better than they have turned out.

He was thinking Couturier, Patrick, Hayes Frost down the middle by now.

He was thinking he had an embarrassment of riches on wing and a strong young core on defense.

The reality he's had none of those things, I think it is an instance of looking at a situation from the outside and thinking it's one way but the reality is different.

 

Yeah, I agree completely. If I'm being honest, I was cautiously hopeful when Fletch was signed. I remember thinking maybe that would work out actually. It didn't seem obvious to me that it would, but it didn't feel impossible either.

 

Now though, that's a different story. AV is a successful NHL coach. He achieved little to no success here. There are two things we can draw from this: Either all that previous success was mostly luck, or the team he was asked to work with just isn't as good as many hoped they would be. Given how they were already not so great before AV dropped in, and they were not so great after he eventually left, it seems to me the second option is far more likely.

 

And fair enough, this league seems to be working in tiers nowadays anyway. There are say 7-8 top tier teams who are clearly better than the rest, then a second tier of ten or so who are all about equal and can punch up on occasion, and there's this sort of bottom tier who in a good year might be on the bubble. The team we have is in that latter tier, and they have been for a decade plus now. It's irrational to suggest otherwise at this point.

 

My beef with Fletch now is he's essentially just a lame duck. If he's going to stay, he should be tasked with rebuilding this team properly, cause that's what it needs. I can forgive the powers-that-be for thinking they might have been a good coach and 1-2 pieces away back when Fletch was hired, but I'm tired of the fantasy now. It's time to move on, and delaying it is only setting us further back.

 

But hey, bring on Bedard!

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

But hey, bring on Bedard!

 

 

Who is the guy after Bedard? 

 

That is the guy the Flyers will get who will have something tragic happen to him...

 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

who will have something tragic happen to him...

 

Like scoring 30 goals in Toronto?

 

[GrittyForever]

On 5/4/2022 at 7:28 AM, RonJeremy said:

The Rangers had some great luck in their rebuild . Some of top tier UFA players wanted to go only to NY, so nobody else had a shot to sign them. They signed Trouba and Panarin, while we signed Hayes and Risto. Adam Fox told Carolina, he wouldn't sign with them and will only go to NY. That's three great players right there. Then they hit the draft lottery two years in a row  getting the second and first pick. They drafted Kakko and Lafreniere, both started off slow, but now are looking like real good players. We got the second pick and got Nolan Patrick. The Rangers did a great job rebuilding, but they also had great luck,wile the Flyers had no luck.

I agree with all this. Luck and winning the lottery played a huge role, as did being a desirable location for free agents. With all of that though, I'm not sure they make the playoffs this year without the surprise goaltending. Won them a lot of games they were outplayed in. 

[radoran]

11 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

Luck and winning the lottery played a huge role...  They drafted Kakko and Lafreniere, both started off slow, but now are looking like real good players. We got the second pick and got Nolan Patrick.

 

Lafreniere just put up 31 points in his second year.

 

You know who else had 31 points on his second year?

 

Nolan Patrick.

 

And I like Finns as much as more than the next guy, but the #2 overall pick with 58 points in his first 157 games?

 

You want to know a #2 overall pick with 61 points in his first 145 games?

 

Nolan Patrick.

 

 

11 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

The Rangers did a great job rebuilding, but they also had great luck,wile the Flyers had no luck.

 

It's more the free agent moves you note that the Flyers didn't - or couldn't - make. Trouba, Panarin. Then Fox and grabbing a goalie.

 

The Flyers couldn't afford Panarin, much less and Trouba. That's why they got the second tier prize in Hayes - for seven years. Just like they weren't going to get Tavares so they got JVR - for five years.

 

The thing is the Rangers told their fans they were going to go down for a couple of years to come up. And they did. They didn't spend to the cap every year. They didn't plug short term holes with long term contracts. They didn't just try to make the playoffs because anything can happen.

 

They built.

 

There's something to be said for that. Not "tear it all down" but get yourself a solid foundation and make a move when the opportunity presents itself instead of seeing every next move as the one that could get you there.

 

There's good evidence that building a foundation and waiting for a window to open works better than flying into every window that presents itself.

[GrittyForever]

44 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

The seasons that names like Panarin, Zibanejad(career year), Kreider(also career year), Fox and even Strome had helped as well.  All of them members of that roster for 3 years or more.

 

As radoran states, they built a team.  Wasn't just good goaltending.  Yes, of course.  Having one of the best(if not the best) goaltender in the league obviously helped.  But, he has also been there for 3 seasons, even though only playing 12 games in '19-20.

 

And Gerrard Gallant is a big reason for their success.

Ottawa definitely blew the Zibanejad trade that's for sure. Nash trade to Boston also helped. 

 

Totally agree on Gallant. I suspect he's a hard person to get along with (thinking of GMs here) and does things his way, hence some of his firings, but he's a good coach. 

[RonJeremy]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Lafreniere just put up 31 points in his second year.

 

You know who else had 31 points on his second year?

 

Nolan Patrick.

 

And I like Finns as much as more than the next guy, but the #2 overall pick with 58 points in his first 157 games?

 

You want to know a #2 overall pick with 61 points in his first 145 games?

 

Nolan Patrick.

 

 

 

It's more the free agent moves you note that the Flyers didn't - or couldn't - make. Trouba, Panarin. Then Fox and grabbing a goalie.

 

The Flyers couldn't afford Panarin, much less and Trouba. That's why they got the second tier prize in Hayes - for seven years. Just like they weren't going to get Tavares so they got JVR - for five years.

 

The thing is the Rangers told their fans they were going to go down for a couple of years to come up. And they did. They didn't spend to the cap every year. They didn't plug short term holes with long term contracts. They didn't just try to make the playoffs because anything can happen.

 

They built.

 

There's something to be said for that. Not "tear it all down" but get yourself a solid foundation and make a move when the opportunity presents itself instead of seeing every next move as the one that could get you there.

 

There's good evidence that building a foundation and waiting for a window to open works better than flying into every window that presents itself.

You can’t count games played and total points to compare these players. The difference is ,these guys on the Rangers started slow and  showed development and improved over time ,where Patrick didn’t. Patrick got worse as time went on, yes I know it was due to injury, but the end result is his career is probably over and I never liked him when we made that pick. I think he was overrated from the start.

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

You can’t count games played and total points to compare these players

 

There are all sorts of development caveats - Patrick being rushed into the league, being expected to fill a role he was ill suited to, too many expectations...

 

The experience is as much an indictment of the Flyers' development of players as it is an endorsement of the Rangers'.

 

The Rags didn't need either of those guys to overperform so they didn't have to pressure them.

 

That's more asset management and more about taking time to build.

Edited May 9, 2022 by radoran

[RonJeremy]

22 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

There are all sorts of development caveats - Patrick being rushed into the league, being expected to fill a role he was ill suited to, too many expectations...

 

The experience is as much an indictment of the Flyers' development of players as it is an endorsement of the Rangers'.

 

The Rags didn't need either of those guys to overperform so they didn't have to pressure them.

 

That's more asset management and more about taking time to build.

I agree we have been doing that for ages, Zubrus and Sibisa are some names from the past that we ruined by bringing them up way too soon. The last guys we actually developed properly were Carter and Richards, who played a full season in the AHL. I think every other first round pick was called up right from juniors, except Frost who got some time in the AHL. The last two seasons with covid shutdowns, injuries,etc,surely didn’t help the development of our young guys.

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

The last guys we actually developed properly were Carter and Richards, who played a full season in the AHL.

 

Because of the lockout...

 

4 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I agree we have been doing that for ages, Zubrus and Sibisa are some names from the past that we ruined by bringing them up way too soon.

 

RIght, and it's things like rushing Patrick up into the lineup, bidding against himself to re-sign Voracek, and signing "best available UFA" JVR that indicate to me that Hextall was still trying to follow the overall Flyer blueprint where they are always an "aggressive retool" away from making the playoffs and then anything can happen!

 

It's not like the Rangers tanked or cut ties with everybody. Zibanejad and Kreider were there when they said they were going to rebuild.

 

And they have just about as much cap space in next year's free agent market as the Flyers do.

 

Meanwhile the Flyers core signed for the next four seasons at least (~60% of cap space) are:

Couturier, Ellis*, Hayes, Atkinson, Konecny, Laughton, Farabee, Ristolainen

 

with Provorov (8%) and Hart (5%) on top of that.

[RonJeremy]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Because of the lockout...

 

 

RIght, and it's things like rushing Patrick up into the lineup, bidding against himself to re-sign Voracek, and signing "best available UFA" JVR that indicate to me that Hextall was still trying to follow the overall Flyer blueprint where they are always an "aggressive retool" away from making the playoffs and then anything can happen!

 

It's not like the Rangers tanked or cut ties with everybody. Zibanejad and Kreider were there when they said they were going to rebuild.

 

And they have just about as much cap space in next year's free agent market as the Flyers do.

 

Meanwhile the Flyers core signed for the next four seasons at least (~60% of cap space) are:

Couturier, Ellis*, Hayes, Atkinson, Konecny, Laughton, Farabee, Ristolainen

 

with Provorov (8%) and Hart (5%) on top of that.

The only guys I think the Flyers would put up for trade this summer would be Konecny and Provorov .Laughton and Atkinson if they have good years, would be a good 2023 trade deadline moves. Coots, Ellis and Hayes are permanent financial anchors. Risto would have to put up a career numbers next year and some playoff teams would have to get some injuries on defense for us to unload him and we probably would have to eat some salary. 
 

The thing ,is our defense is so bad and with Ellis being a big question mark, I don’t know how they could trade Provorov ,unless there is some younger cheaper highly skilled dman out there to trade for . The other thing is ,we have lots of cap space tied up with Ellis and Provorov and now that Sanheim is our best defenseman, if he has another good season, he’s gonna want a big raise when he hits UFA, so we could end up losing him down the road.

[FD19372]

Should we change the topic to How the Rangers very quickly exited the playoffs, now?

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

25 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Should we change the topic to How the Rangers very quickly exited the playoffs, now?

 

Maybe NY should be highlighted in our thread about "Shortest Books Ever Written" 

[Toronto Jules]

Not sure if the Rangers can be completely counted out yet. Yes, Igor Shesterkin has been really shaky and the Rangers just might go with Alexandar Georgiev in game 5. The Rangers have too much talent though on both the offensive and defensive side. 

[GrittyForever]

What I was saying earlier though. They're not that good, they rode a hot goalie for the season. A goalie who now seems to have either burnt out or worn out or just lost his mojo. Without him they aren't much. 

[OccamsRazor]

13 hours ago, FD19372 said:

Should we change the topic to How the Rangers very quickly exited the playoffs, now?

 

That is not nice and it doesn't support the narrative.

 

It's the Ranger way or the highway buddy!

 

Flyers need a new fresh first round exit plan and well it works just ask @SCFlyguy he approves...

[SCFlyguy]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:24 AM, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is not nice and it doesn't support the narrative.

 

It's the Ranger way or the highway buddy!

 

Flyers need a new fresh first round exit plan and well it works just ask @SCFlyguy he approves...

The Rangers' best line of the playoffs is all 21 or under.

 

I would take the Rangers' next 5 years against the Flyers' next 10 years.

Edited May 31, 2022 by pilldoc
Comment not necessary

[mojo1917]

8 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

The Rangers' best line of the playoffs is all 21 or under

That's not even close to their best line.

 

They're fine. Good players, room to improve. 

 

But Krieder,Zabanejad,and Panarin are, without question, the best line on that team.

See: all the elimination games for reference. 

[Lindbergh31]

On 5/4/2022 at 11:19 AM, flyercanuck said:

 

A smart GM would be signing pieces the team needs or that are good long term solutions. Fletcher and Homer sign whoever they can that is UFA and on the downswing.

It's simple Fletcher has no plan going forward, he's just winging it. If he had a plan to rebuild properly then he wouldn't have signed Risto to the 5 year extension he would have traded him at the deadline for picks. Yes the Rangers had some luck but they had a plan to rebuild or retool as they like to call it.

[SCFlyguy]

35 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

That's not even close to their best line.

 

They're fine. Good players, room to improve. 

 

But Krieder,Zabanejad,and Panarin are, without question, the best line on that team.

See: all the elimination games for reference. 

You're right, probably.  Maybe the Kid-Line is their most consistent line.  NY sports talk has been complaining about the inconsistency of the top line and how they disappear at times.

 

Either way, the point stands.  They look like a solid team that could be good for years to come and they built an actual team instead of assembling a Frankenstein monster of pieces no one else wanted and underwhelming youth.

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Maybe the Kid-Line is their most consistent line.

 

I think that's the right way to say it. The big dogs found their games and cashed in at the most critical times but through 2 rounds the Kid Line has consistently outworked the opposition.

 

2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

instead of assembling a Frankenstein monster of pieces no one else wanted and underwhelming youth.

 

You nailed it - it's "the Flyers' way" especially since Fletcher took over. Hextall had a few WTF signings, Holmgren a few more but Hayes' $50mil contract and Ristolainen's $35mil are in a league of their own for stupidity.

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by GratefulFlyers

[Poconono]

Up here in NE Pennsylvania (6th Boro of NYC) they're already beating their chests thinking they'll win the Cup here in Rangerland.  Haven't heard $hit from them in 2 decades but now they're all lifetime fans.

[LegionOfDoom]

Let's Go Flyers!

[GrittyForever]

On 5/31/2022 at 5:18 AM, Lindbergh31 said:

It's simple Fletcher has no plan going forward, he's just winging it. If he had a plan to rebuild properly then he wouldn't have signed Risto to the 5 year extension he would have traded him at the deadline for picks. Yes the Rangers had some luck but they had a plan to rebuild or retool as they like to call it.

Almost right. If he had a plan he wouldn't have traded for Risto in the first place. 

Trading him at the deadline for less than he paid, which would have happened, would have made him look like the total idiot he is and so he had to sign him to justify the trade for him. 

Face it, they are blaming injuries and staying the course, all the way to the bottom. 

[mojo1917]

13 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

Face it, they are blaming injuries and staying the course, all the way to the bottom. 

They're not wrong about the injuries.

It was the entire organization.

If it wouldn't have sucked so badly it would have been comical.

The weird thing is, they can't really "run it back" because the team is quite different from the one projected to play last season.

 

I am expecting 3 to 5 new faces.

Perhaps a "not terrible" young Flyer that hasn't progressed being moved in a hockey trade for another young player that "needs a change of scenery".

 

As far as "no plan" that's just anger talking.

Not to split too many hairs, after all the team was terrible...

The plan was get better on defense, it didn't work.

There is a difference between being clueless in general and executing an idea poorly.

They're at the bottom now, not really any other direction to go.

 

yay!