Flyers are a bottom five team, what are the desired plans for the rebuild we don't need?

[aziz]

@radoran you are the perpetually angry version of Douglas Adams.  And I love it.  Just make sure your phone is clean and you have a towel.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, aziz said:

@radoran you are the perpetually angry version of Douglas Adams.  And I love it.  Just make sure your phone is clean and you have a towel.

 

[RonJeremy]

20 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Exactly.

 

If some idiot wants to give up two roster players, a 1st, 2 2nds, and a 7th to get that guy and overpay him, you let him.

 

You don't be that guy.

 

Chuck Fletcher:

We will be in the same position with Konecny and Provy in 2.5 years. Both will be close to 28 and UFAs. If Konecny continues this pace his value is just getting higher.  The biggest questions... even if the Flyers offer their usual ridiculous high, long term  contracts,will he or Provy even want to stay for the second rebuild after enduring 6 years already, I doubt it.

 

I dont see us being significantly better in the next few years. So I would definitely see what top cant miss prospects, we might be able to get from some other teams. If we can land a couple of top young players and a few picks it may be worth doing.

 

There is no rush to settle for anything less since both guys are still under contract, so only if the right deal happens, then you can take advantage of Konecnys career season he is on pace to have.

[OccamsRazor]

22 hours ago, radoran said:

Here endeth the lesson.

 

 

 

Post of the day just for the Highlander gif.

 

R.I.P. Ramirez

 

[SCFlyguy]

7 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

We will be in the same position with Konecny and Provy in 2.5 years. Both will be close to 28 and UFAs. If Konecny continues this pace his value is just getting higher.  The biggest questions... even if the Flyers offer their usual ridiculous high, long term  contracts,will he or Provy even want to stay for the second rebuild after enduring 6 years already, I doubt it.

 

I dont see us being significantly better in the next few years. So I would definitely see what top cant miss prospects, we might be able to get from some other teams. If we can land a couple of top young players and a few picks it may be worth doing.

 

There is no rush to settle for anything less since both guys are still under contract, so only if the right deal happens, then you can take advantage of Konecnys career season he is on pace to have.

I've been saying this for years.  I said it about Giroux.  I said it about Simmonds.  I said it about Couturier.

 

The best GM is a GM without emotion.  Who looks at the roster and the players for what they are, not what they want them to be or what the franchise needs.

 

We got the best years from Couturier.  Three Couturiers weren't making this team a winner.  So you trade him for multiple shots at a player that will potentially be better than Couturier, or at least a player whose prime matches better with where your team is at this moment.  Resigning him was gross negligence.

Edited December 16, 2022 by SCFlyguy

[radoran]

45 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Resigning him was gross negligence.

 

Re-signing him is fine.

 

It's the NMC that's the egregious part.

 

They had already extended Couturier because of the inevitable success they were going to have and allow them to re-sign Giroux and prove that they were right all along.

 

47 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

The best GM is a GM without emotion. 

 

And without an emotional senior advisor.

[FD19372]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Re-signing him is fine.

 

It's the NMC that's the egregious part.

 

They had already extended Couturier because of the inevitable success they were going to have and allow them to re-sign Giroux and prove that they were right all along.

 

 

And without an emotional senior advisor.

Or, a team president who doesn't use an abacus, nor has brain damage.

[radoran]

13 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

doesn't use an abacus

 

Hey, abacusses - abacasse? abucassi? - whatever - aren't easy.

[JR Ewing]

37 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Or, a team president who doesn't use an abacus, nor has brain damage.

 

What; do you expect him to do analytics with his fingers?
 

[SCFlyguy]

Paul Holmgren is so dumb he tried to sign Corsi to a 12-year deal with full NMC.

[aziz]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:28 PM, SCFlyguy said:

Paul Holmgren is so dumb he tried to sign Corsi to a 12-year deal with full NMC.

 

he's already signed with Columbus 

[flyercanuck]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:28 PM, SCFlyguy said:

Paul Holmgren is so dumb he tried to sign Corsi to a 12-year deal with full NMC.

 

But Fletcher beat him to it and traded a 1st 2-2nds and a 3rd only to find out Corsi is out for life. 

[tucson83]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:39 AM, flyercanuck said:

 

I can't, for the life of me, understand how any  Flyer fan whos last name isn't Fletcher, Holmgren or Clarke could stick up for what Chuck Fletcher and Paul Holmgren have done to this team. LOOK AT THIS TEAM. Look where we are in the standings. Look at the cap. Look at the garbage. 

 

I will defer to what radoran has already said, to save me from rehashing it. I will add that, "a team that focused on defense that couldnt score goals" had 1. The top (tied) goal scoring defenceman in the league in Ivan Provorov, drafted by Hextall and destroyed by the present group of idiots, one of the top offensive dmen in the league in Gostisbere who was given away, WITH draft picks, and another highly offensively gifted dman in Sanheim who's never allowed on the PP where he'd probably excel. Fletcher has built a team in a league of speed based around one of the slowest players in the league. 

 

Who said "simply getting Bedard" would fix this? Nobody said that. But if we somehow managed to get him, it sure would be a lot bigger step in the right direction than Hayes/Ristolainen/DeAngelo/Yandle/Seeler/Braun/Deslauriers etc etc etc have been. The team is going backwards in the standings, while management trades away draft picks to win now. 

 

is fletch a bad gm? no,

 

LMAO!!! That's hilar......wait, you're serious? You're serious with that comment?!? 

 

 

 

if you are saying you can with a cup the roster with that hextall built no scoring forwards you are out of touch because before we were making the playoffs and winning rounds before he got here, it's his foundation, he destroyed it by drafting forwards that cant score which it seems like you are ok with it. you just seem happy we are in this position whether than make the playoffs and winning rounds all because you cant be patient to win the cup with the way homer was building it. i didnt say fletcher was the best but you are just throwing all on him because you expecting a cup out of hextall's prospects and it's failing and you dont want to blame him for anything.

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by tucson83

[flyercanuck]

23 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

if you are saying you can with a cup the roster with that hextall built no scoring forwards you are out of touch because before we were making the playoffs and winning rounds before he got here, it's his foundation, he destroyed it by drafting forwards that cant score which it seems like you are ok with it. you just seem happy we are in this position whether than make the playoffs and winning rounds all because you cant be patient to win the cup with the way homer was building it. i didnt say fletcher was the best but you are just throwing all on him because you expecting a cup out of hextall's prospects and it's failing and you dont want to blame him for anything.

 

 

Well that's good news, cause I NEVER said they should win a cup with Hextalls roster.

 

 Hextall spent his first 3 years digging the Flyers out of the cap hell Homer left him in. he spent 4 years trying to refill the practically empty prospect cupboard Homer left him with. Fletcher took over with the cupboard full of developing franchise goalie (Hart), top 2 defencemen (Provorov, Sanheim) top line wingers (Konecny, Farabee) a top line centre (Couturier, Patrick) several other prospects and all their future draft picks. Most of the Flyer prospects have regressed since then, Patricks health went right down the tube and Fletcher has been throwing draft picks and money at some of the dumbest or slowest or douchiest or laziest players available. The result is the team is going backwards. 

 

 

 

As for no patience, first of all Homer was never building a cup winner, he was building, forever, a mediocre team that would never draft high enough to get elite talent, or be good enough to beat the best teams.

 

 I'd  like to see you find ANYONE on this board who has wanted a total rebuild of this team longer than I have (as long, maybe). I'd love to watch a team rebuilt the proper way. I think it's a lot more fun than trying to buy a bunch of used to be's and never was' into a cup that will never materialize.

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by flyercanuck

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, tucson83 said:

if you are saying you can with a cup the roster with that hextall built no scoring forwards you are out of touch because before we were making the playoffs and winning rounds before he got here,

 

Yoda?

 

https://youtu.be/CbvqGEhRssw

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by ruxpin

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Well that's good news, cause I NEVER said they should win a cup with Hextalls roster.

 

 Hextall spent his first 3 years digging the Flyers out of the cap hell Homer left him in. he spent 4 years trying to refill the practically empty prospect cupboard Homer left him with. Fletcher took over with the cupboard full of developing franchise goalie (Hart), top 2 defencemen (Provorov, Sanheim) top line wingers (Konecny, Farabee) a top line centre (Couturier, Patrick) several other prospects and all their future draft picks. Most of the Flyer prospects have regressed since then, Patricks health went right down the tube and Fletcher has been throwing draft picks and money at some of the dumbest or slowest or douchiest or laziest players available. The result is the team is going backwards. 

 

 

 

As for no patience, first of all Homer was never building a cup winner, he was building, forever, a mediocre team that would never draft high enough to get elite talent, or be good enough to beat the best teams.

 

 I'd  like to see you find ANYONE on this board who has wanted a total rebuild of this team longer than I have (as long, maybe). I'd love to watch a team rebuilt the proper way. I think it's a lot more fun than trying to buy a bunch of used to be's and never was' into a cup that will never materialize.

 

 

 

I've been there awhile.

 

You were there first.

 

I'll take Hextall's approach a million times out of a million chances over Flucker and Homeleegrin.

 

You stay out of Hextall's face and don't force the JVR idiocy or the subsequent infant murder of team building that Fletcher has perpetrated at the direction of the senile basxxxds (Holmgren, Clarke, Scott, and Briere) and Philly had a solid team with actual people buying tickets instead of corporate ticket fans dressed as seats.

Edited December 18, 2022 by ruxpin

[GratefulFlyers]

22 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

first of all Homer was never building a cup winner, he was building, forever, a mediocre team

 

"building" is probably being a little too kind. Are you really building a team if you're "going for it" every year? I'm not disagreeing - "building" is the right word to show the contrast btw Holmgren and Hextall. It's like night/day.

 

Until Hextall took over I never got the impression there was any plan from year to year. It seemed to be about stacking the team with guys that had name recognition because they'd had good, better than average careers. Pronger is probably the best example but there were others - that moron Bryzgalov, trading away #2 pick JVR for ... Luke Schenn??? You won't find a harsher critic of JVR than me but Luke Schenn was just an insult to Flyers' fans. Trading away Gagne...so many more.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, I get that. I can't say Holmgren was terrible every step of the way. But a plan? A vision? I never saw one. Just like now with this Fletcher goofball.

[tucson83]

27 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

"building" is probably being a little too kind. Are you really building a team if you're "going for it" every year? I'm not disagreeing - "building" is the right word to show the contrast btw Holmgren and Hextall. It's like night/day.

 

Until Hextall took over I never got the impression there was any plan from year to year. It seemed to be about stacking the team with guys that had name recognition because they'd had good, better than average careers. Pronger is probably the best example but there were others - that moron Bryzgalov, trading away #2 pick JVR for ... Luke Schenn??? You won't find a harsher critic of JVR than me but Luke Schenn was just an insult to Flyers' fans. Trading away Gagne...so many more.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, I get that. I can't say Holmgren was terrible every step of the way. But a plan? A vision? I never saw one. Just like now with this Fletcher goofball.

homer was the one that got us closer to the cup more than clarke but because of injuries, we couldnt get over the hump like i dont understand why you said his plan was worse than hextall because this team so much worse now because of his lousy decision making, at least homer brought in players that can score offense and defense, hextall brought in players that couldnt score jack when it comes to forwards which i have been saying for years and you say his plan was better even though the results were ten times worse.

 

i dont understand the fixation with hextall's plan, it's like you want to live and die by his plan and no one else should touch it or they are the bad guys, gms and coaches, i swear if briere comes in here, squashing hextall's plan and brings in players that can score goals and win cups, you are not going to be happy.

[flyercanuck]

4 hours ago, tucson83 said:

homer was the one that got us closer to the cup more than clarke but because of injuries, we couldnt get over the hump like i dont understand why you said his plan was worse than hextall because this team so much worse now because of his lousy decision making, at least homer brought in players that can score offense and defense, hextall brought in players that couldnt score jack when it comes to forwards which i have been saying for years and you say his plan was better even though the results were ten times worse.

 

i dont understand the fixation with hextall's plan, it's like you want to live and die by his plan and no one else should touch it or they are the bad guys, gms and coaches, i swear if briere comes in here, squashing hextall's plan and brings in players that can score goals and win cups, you are not going to be happy.

 

Homers "cup" team made the playoffs on the last game of the regular season in a shootout. The planets aligned all the way through the playoffs. Montreal took out the top seed, and then took out the next top seed left as an 8th place team. Philly came back from a 3-0 deficit in games and a 3-0 deficit in game 7 against Boston. As a 7th seed we had to go through the #2, the #6 and the #8. I don't think you'd get an easier way as a top seed. Then we got to play the team with the 2nd worst goaltending in Stanley Cup final history. Unfortunately, we had the worst. A juggernaut, the team was not. 

 

 

[radoran]

Paul Holmgren traded away the prime scoring years of Jeff Carter and JVR.

 

Carter for a guy who never scored more than 23 goals in a season and another who wouldn't score more than 15 under Holmgren.

 

JVR for well known scoring stalwart Luke Schenn.

 

He built the team around Voracek and a guy who scored more than 25 goals three times.

 

Tell me more about Holmgren's penchant for acquiring scoring forwards?

[icehole]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:57 AM, GratefulFlyers said:

 

"building" is probably being a little too kind. Are you really building a team if you're "going for it" every year? I'm not disagreeing - "building" is the right word to show the contrast btw Holmgren and Hextall. It's like night/day.

 

Until Hextall took over I never got the impression there was any plan from year to year. It seemed to be about stacking the team with guys that had name recognition because they'd had good, better than average careers. Pronger is probably the best example but there were others - that moron Bryzgalov, trading away #2 pick JVR for ... Luke Schenn??? You won't find a harsher critic of JVR than me but Luke Schenn was just an insult to Flyers' fans. Trading away Gagne...so many more.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, I get that. I can't say Holmgren was terrible every step of the way. But a plan? A vision? I never saw one. Just like now with this Fletcher goofball.

I get it...holmgren and clarke made some bad moves, traded young players, and gave away picks during the years they got primeau, forsberg, roenick, and Bryz. But in those seasons, including the years holmgren was a scout for the team in the 90s, they drafted Gagne, Williams, sharp, Carter, Richards, giroux, JVR, and couturier. That's at the same time they got those more notable players by trade or free agency, as well as simmonds, voracek, and schenn. That's a better resume than Hextall and Fletcher combined.

[flyercanuck]

4 hours ago, icehole said:

I get it...holmgren and clarke made some bad moves, traded young players, and gave away picks during the years they got primeau, forsberg, roenick, and Bryz. But in those seasons, including the years holmgren was a scout for the team in the 90s, they drafted Gagne, Williams, sharp, Carter, Richards, giroux, JVR, and couturier. That's at the same time they got those more notable players by trade or free agency, as well as simmonds, voracek, and schenn. That's a better resume than Hextall and Fletcher combined.

 

Clarke and Homer were GM for a total of 20 years. Hextall was GM for 4. Fletcher is an idiot. 

 

They may have drafted Williams and Sharp, but they also gave them away for 34 games of Danny Markov and a 3rd round pick. Brilliant. JVR was hardly anything to write home about as a 2nd overall. So in 20 years they got Gagne, Carter and Richards who they then dealt in their prime, Giroux and Couturier, who came from trading Carter. I wonder if Hextall could match that if you gave him 16 more years as a GM. I think I could. I think you could. I think anyone not named Fletcher could.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Fletcher is an idiot. 

 

Come on...idiot is the best you can do?

 

 

 

Come on try again has to be a better description of him than that - ain't no kids here tells how you really feel...

[GratefulFlyers]

9 hours ago, icehole said:

I get it...holmgren and clarke made some bad moves, traded young players, and gave away picks during the years they got primeau, forsberg, roenick, and Bryz. But in those seasons, including the years holmgren was a scout for the team in the 90s, they drafted Gagne, Williams, sharp, Carter, Richards, giroux, JVR, and couturier. That's at the same time they got those more notable players by trade or free agency, as well as simmonds, voracek, and schenn. That's a better resume than Hextall and Fletcher combined.

 

Holmgren/Clarke weren't terrible in everything. They can ID talent and in 20 years they both found some good players. But read what @flyercanuck wrote then you can see why it looked like (I'd say "it's obvious") there was no plan. Sign some talent, give them a few years and when they inevitably come up short deal them away. Great. But why inevitably? Because in all those years they never once prioritized goaltending. After Pelle the Flyers settled for backups, has-beens or never-beens in net. Until Bob, who they promptly fkd over. But hey we're making the POs every year so who cares right?

 

Except that when the Flyers go on that great run in 2010 and Boucher gets hurt in Boston - surprise surprise their  half-ass backup costs the Flyers their best chance in decades to finally win another Cup.

 

 

[ruxpin]

The other thing people are ridiculously not including in their arguments defending the albatrosses named Clarke and Holmgren is that they are citing a world that has factually not existed since 2006.  It's 16 years, people.

 

 

Neither of these calcified fossils has ever adapted to an NHL under a cap system.  Almost every delusional nostalgic reference refers to a world that no longer exists and will not return. Even if it did:  zero cups, zero parades in 46 years.

 

Yeah Carter and Richards but these imbeciles gave up instead of continuing to build around them.

 

Demonstrable FACT:  both have been entirely worthless and completely bumble**** inept in the world we live in for 16 years.

 

Can we please stop with the entirely irrelevant and insanely stupid, delusional defense of their record?

 

Holmgren, in particular, is demonstrably and factually among the worst coaches, GMs and presidents in the history of this franchise and the argument is support is as ridiculous as it is realistically delusional.

Edited December 21, 2022 by ruxpin