hf101 Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Who do you think wins? Who got missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Great to see a good ol' Barrie boy nominated...but I'm not a fan of how they judge defencemen anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 4 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Great to see a good ol' Barrie boy nominated...but I'm not a fan of how they judge defencemen anymore. They've always had a tendency to value offense slightly over defense. Ray Bourque, Brian Leetch, Paul Coffey and a few others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 2 hours ago, JagerMeister said: They've always had a tendency to value offense slightly over defense. Ray Bourque, Brian Leetch, Paul Coffey and a few others. Raymond Bourque was a GREAT defensive player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 3 hours ago, JagerMeister said: They've always had a tendency to value offense slightly over defense. Ray Bourque, Brian Leetch, Paul Coffey and a few others. Bourque was amazing defensively an offensively. Never overrated He was voted best defensive defenseman more than once while throwing up 80-90 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 I voter for... Never mind... You know who I voted for. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 I voted for Karlsson. He should be up for the Hart (but won't be) too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 13 minutes ago, ruxpin said: I voted for Karlsson. He should be up for the Hart (but won't be) too. At least I know I'm not the only one that feels that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 No Letang? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share Posted May 1, 2016 14 hours ago, Polaris922 said: No Letang? I think Letang was a better choice than Doughty, but it is close though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Letang is a poor omission. when he's in the line up the Pens are dangerous, when he's not they blow. He is also playing the best defense i've ever seen him play. it's all coming together for him. This would be the year he could be included and i wouldn't roll my eyes. I think Karlsson should win it, but i would not be surprised to see it go to Burns , he had a terrific year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 I think Letang's injury shorted his chances. Otherwise he scored as many goals as Karlsson, averaged nearly a point per game and was 11 higher than Karlsson on +/-. His defensive play has been superior to Karlsson's in my eyes but not playing the full season hurt him. I'd about guarantee he'd have beaten the 82 point mark if he'd made it all 82 games. He was absolutely on fire the last months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Bob McKenzie recently published results from an anonymous panel of 21 men: current GMs, Head Coaches, and a group of HHOFers. Here are the results as it pertains to the Norris Trophy: Who is your choice for the Norris Trophy: Drew Doughty or Erik Karlsson? Panellists were told they could write in any defenceman of their choice if they believed someone other than Doughty or Karlsson warranted the award. The results: Doughty 18 Karlsson 2 Letang 1 It wasn't even close. A landslide. Most of the Doughty fan club on this esteemed TSN Hockey panel espoused the commonly heard arguments we've seen in stories and on recent Twitter fights. That is, as good as Karlsson is offensively, Doughty better embodies the definition of an all-around defenceman. Norris Race A sampling of some pro-Doughty comments: “Doughty plays in a tight system and sacrifices points to win,” said one Hall of Famer. “It's Doughty for me...and by a wide margin,” said an NHL GM. “Karlsson is amazing but No. 2 for me,” said another. One Doughty supporter went so far as to lightheartedly suggest — at least I think it was lighthearted — that anyone voting Karlsson for the Norris should lose their voting privileges. While Karlsson only garnered two of 21 votes, if the identity of his small group of supporters could be revealed, there'd be no jokes about suspending voting privileges. Even some of the Doughty boosters acknowledged the debate has gotten a little out of hand, perhaps a touch too emotional or polarizing. “It's gotten to the point now where if you say you support one guy over the other it's taken as a criticism of the other guy,” said an NHL coach. “They are both phenomenal talents. If I say Doughty, and I do, I'm not saying anything bad about Karlsson.” One GM who voted for Doughty did acknowledge he's a little bit conflicted by his own support. “Like a lot of people, I believe [Doughty] is due to win his first Norris Trophy, and I do believe that," he said. "But I am wondering about the timing now. Look at Karlsson's season; look at the numbers he's putting up. It's incredible, really. I do sense there's this sentiment to make sure [Doughty] finally gets recognition, but I am kind of wondering if, given what Karlsson has done, this may be exactly the wrong time to give it." It was interesting that one Hall of Famer went with Pittsburgh Penguin defenceman Kris Letang. Others went out of their way to laud San Jose's Brent Burns, too, but no one could see their way clear to put Burns ahead of Doughty or Karlsson. --- If the same views are shared by voters, don't be shocked if Doughty wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Karlsson scored like crazy but his team gave up the third most goals in Hockey and missed the postseason. Burns had one Hell of a year and the Sharks were 10th in goals against. Not bad. Doughty had the second highest goals (14) and points (51) of his career and was a career high plus 24 and helped carry a very thin Kings team to the postseason. Along with Suter and Karlsson he was one of three players to player over 28 minutes a game. He WAS the Kings, IMHO. Of the three I would go with Doughty. Both Karlsson and Burns were minus at even strength, an overrated stat but one to be considered. IMHO I would never vote for a player for the Norris who was not at least even in plus/minus. My three would have been Doughty, McDonough and Hedman with Doughty winning it. That all said, I think it will be Karlsson for the same reason that the best offensive players win gold gloves in baseball. But the best and most complete defenseman this year was Doughty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 The trophy definition is given to "The top defensive player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all around ability at the position." Burns is a forward playing defense. Karlsson played on a team that missed the postseason because they gave up the third most goals in Hockey. Any vote for anyone except Doughty is not reading the definition of what the trophy was meant for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 11 minutes ago, yave1964 said: The trophy definition is given to "The top defensive player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all around ability at the position." Burns is a forward playing defense. Karlsson played on a team that missed the postseason because they gave up the third most goals in Hockey. Any vote for anyone except Doughty is not reading the definition of what the trophy was meant for. I think you're being a little hard on them. When Erik Karlsson was on the ice, the Sens had 131 GF, 115 GA (53.2 GF%) When Brent Burns was on the ice, the Sharks had 138 GF, 108 GA (56.1 GF%) And Drew Doughty? The Kings had 110 GF, 94 GA (53.9 GF%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 23 hours ago, yave1964 said: The trophy definition is given to "The top defensive player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all around ability at the position." Burns is a forward playing defense. Karlsson played on a team that missed the postseason because they gave up the third most goals in Hockey. Any vote for anyone except Doughty is not reading the definition of what the trophy was meant for. I have to respectfully disagree with you there. As JR pointed out, the Sens fared quite well with Karlsson on the ice. Without him, there was a massive drop off in the Corsi stats. The difference was far greater than that displayed by Doughty, Burns, Letang, or anyone else you care to choose. The real problem was, outside of Karlsson, the Sens had almost nothing on the back end. For most of the season, we really only had two truly good defensemen: Karlsson and Methot. Ceci shows promise, but we put multiple dumpster fires on the ice to play the blue line this season. The goaltending was also bad. To me, and I promise I'm not saying this just because I'm a Sens fan, it should be hands down Karlsson. I agree with rux that he should have been up for the Hart. With the team missing the playoffs, it won't happen, but I guarantee you the Sens would have been last place without Karlsson. I won't guarantee that he'll win (though I do believe he will), but I'd personally consider any other result a travesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 @ScottM Quote I agree with rux You see where you went wrong, yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, ruxpin said: @ScottM You see where you went wrong, yeah? He could have said "I agree with @radoran..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, ScottM said: I have to respectfully disagree with you there. As JR pointed out, the Sens fared quite well with Karlsson on the ice. Without him, there was a massive drop off in the Corsi stats. The difference was far greater than that displayed by Doughty, Burns, Letang, or anyone else you care to choose. The real problem was, outside of Karlsson, the Sens had almost nothing on the back end. For most of the season, we really only had two truly good defensemen: Karlsson and Methot. Ceci shows promise, but we put multiple dumpster fires on the ice to play the blue line this season. The goaltending was also bad. To me, and I promise I'm not saying this just because I'm a Sens fan, it should be hands down Karlsson. I agree with rux that he should have been up for the Hart. With the team missing the playoffs, it won't happen, but I guarantee you the Sens would have been last place without Karlsson. I won't guarantee that he'll win (though I do believe he will), but I'd personally consider any other result a travesty. I expect it to be Karlsson. I will not be upset if it is Karlsson. Mostly playing Devils advocate. It is difficult for me to personally consider a defenseman whose team gave up the third most goals in all of Hockey and missed the postseason and was a minus player to boot for the award, but if anyone deserves it than it would have to be Karlsson for the reasons that you mentioned above. In truth, no other candidate really stood out, Doughty had a fine season, but not one for the ages, Suter carried the Wild for large stretches but they just barely made it in and the team was not a super defensive club. Keith is still Keith and Subban is still Subban but there are reasons not to give them consideration this year. Letang? Not as good offensively as Karlsson, not as good defensively as Doughty but overall he had one hell of a year. Burns being nominated IMHO is a joke. Love the player, love his unique skills, but it would be like nominating big Buff in one of Buffs better years. It does not pass the eye or nose test, it just looks and smells funny. My vote hands down is for Doughty who combines both offense and defense like nobody else this season but Karlsson will likely win it based off of offensive skill. I am ABSOLUTELY not arguing with the fact that he was instrumental in what small success the club had, that he is the biggest force from the blue line not only today but you could argue he is a generational talent he likes of which have not been seen over an extended period since Sir Raymond, at least. But missing the postseason and the teams defense being the chief culprit is enough for me to go Doughty with no offense meant at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 21 minutes ago, yave1964 said: I expect it to be Karlsson. I will not be upset if it is Karlsson. Mostly playing Devils advocate. It is difficult for me to personally consider a defenseman whose team gave up the third most goals in all of Hockey and missed the postseason and was a minus player to boot for the award, but if anyone deserves it than it would have to be Karlsson for the reasons that you mentioned above. In truth, no other candidate really stood out, Doughty had a fine season, but not one for the ages, Suter carried the Wild for large stretches but they just barely made it in and the team was not a super defensive club. Keith is still Keith and Subban is still Subban but there are reasons not to give them consideration this year. Letang? Not as good offensively as Karlsson, not as good defensively as Doughty but overall he had one hell of a year. Burns being nominated IMHO is a joke. Love the player, love his unique skills, but it would be like nominating big Buff in one of Buffs better years. It does not pass the eye or nose test, it just looks and smells funny. My vote hands down is for Doughty who combines both offense and defense like nobody else this season but Karlsson will likely win it based off of offensive skill. I am ABSOLUTELY not arguing with the fact that he was instrumental in what small success the club had, that he is the biggest force from the blue line not only today but you could argue he is a generational talent he likes of which have not been seen over an extended period since Sir Raymond, at least. But missing the postseason and the teams defense being the chief culprit is enough for me to go Doughty with no offense meant at all. No offense taken. I apologize if it came off that way. My point was just that I don't hold Karlsson responsible for that problem. He's one of the few I can say that about. With no offense to Methot, becasue this is mostly true because of Karlsson, there's a huge cavern between the two of them. As I've said, Ceci shows potential, but I don't think he's quite there yet. After that, we put poo on the ice. Phaneuf helped, but it was too late at that point. When there's a gap as wide as the Pacific Ocean between the first couple of guys and everyone else, I'm going to give the guys on the good side of the gap plenty of benefit of the doubt, especially the guy that's well ahead of the other good guys. Btw, it pains me to have to say some of that stuff about my team, but in many large respects, they were just plain BAD this past season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holtbeast Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 My vote goes out to the guy who I feel is the current best defensemen in the game and that is the Ottawa Senators Erik Karlsson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDDS Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 My $.02: I give it to Karlsson. This is an all-around award. Obviously if it was an award for best defensive defenseman, I wouldn't give it to Karlsson. I wouldn't even make him a finalist. Doughty all the way then, and we would have two other names on the list to consider. His offensive contributions are so far above everyone else, it's hard to ignore. If we are even considering how valuable they are to their respective teams, Doughty is very valuable, but Karlsson is VITAL! But the award isn't really about that anyway. Doughty had a good season, but I didn't really think it was a stand-out season. The problem seems to be that many of the legitimate candidates, including Karlsson, are on teams which are not legitimately contending for a Cup. An argument could be made for Suter, perhaps, but the Wild are barely above average. Karlsson gets my vote because he was able to produce the kind of numbers he did on an otherwise very mediocre team. Without him, the Senators are competing hard with the Leafs and Oilers for Matthews. That's what makes him stand out, despite his warts. This isn't nearly as bad as Hillary Vs. Trump for president, though. Karlsson doesn't wear pantsuits or toupees that I am aware. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyHigh30 Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 66 Assists and 82 total points. Erik Karlsson is so important to his team and he definitely deserves to win this award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 20 minutes ago, SkyHigh30 said: 66 Assists and 82 total points. Erik Karlsson is so important to his team and he definitely deserves to win this award. Not to mention, the damn hart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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