Flyers Identitiy

[Poulin20]

8 minutes ago, flyerrod said:

There, fixed it for ya.

 

Good call....I have been known to say that too!!  I also yell that to Mason occasionally when he lets in an inexplicable softie!

[King Knut]

4 hours ago, vis said:

I don't understand why people thought Weise would be a White- or Martin-type player.  Guy had 24PIMs last year and 34PIMs the year before that.  I don't even know if he had a fight last year.  He had two the year before, according to hockeyfights.com.

 

Weise was supposed to be a defensively responsible checking forward who scored 25-30 or so points.  

That really wasn't that outrageous of an expectation given what he'd been doing in Montreal and Chicago.

I frankly have no explanation for why he isn't better other than that the whole team has had an awful year at even strength and Weise pretty much only plays even strength.  But his d and checking haven't even been all that good, so I really can't explain it.

[mojo1917]

7 hours ago, vis said:

I don't understand why people thought Weise would be a White- or Martin-type player.  Guy had 24PIMs last year and 34PIMs the year before that.  I don't even know if he had a fight last year.  He had two the year before, according to hockeyfights.com.

 

I'll tell you why I thought he had some sandpaper to his game. It was the way he trolled Lucic in the playoffs. When he was with MTL and Lucic was a Bruin.

In that series, Weise hit, went hard into the corners and in general was a hard guy to play against. That was the guy I thought we were getting. The guy we got is vastly different from playoff Dale Weise. I guess DW had himself a career bolstering series against the Bruins only to never reach that level of play again, much the same way JvR did when he was with the Flyers.

 

[flyer4ever]

Poulin20, I used to be optimistic like you, and I do agree with what you say, I just will have to wait and see it to believe it.

[Poulin20]

11 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Poulin20, I used to be optimistic like you, and I do agree with what you say, I just will have to wait and see it to believe it.

 

I think what is so frustrating and is causing the angst among the fans this year is that we added some young players and we all kind of had this expectation that we are going to incrementally get better each year until we are in position to challenge for the Cup.  Rather than progressing this year it looks like we have regressed which is leading many to the conclusion that the rebuild is not working and that we will never compete with this group in charge.  While that is a possible outcome, it is way too early in the rebuild to know which way this is going to go which is why I am suspending judgement until I have more data to look at.  In the short term though it is a bad situation and extremely frustrating for sure.

[ruxpin]

15 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I'll tell you why I thought he had some sandpaper to his game. It was the way he trolled Lucic in the playoffs. When he was with MTL and Lucic was a Bruin.

In that series, Weise hit, went hard into the corners and in general was a hard guy to play against. That was the guy I thought we were getting

 

I have a feeling this was Hextall's exposure to him.   It's Holmgrenesque, really.   Small sample size watching a guy and mistakenly coming away with a completely different impression than his usual play.   (That's not meant for you.  That's my criticism of Hextall and this signing.)

 

Of the two free agent signings this summer, I liked neither but I hated his less than Gordon.   I understood their stated reasoning (defensive zone time, faceoffs, etc), but I didn't buy into some of the other stuff like sandpaper, etc.

[OH1FlyersFan]

On 3/9/2017 at 6:46 AM, ruxpin said:

I grew up with the Bullies in the 70s.    A team that stood together in the 80s.  Those days have passed.  I don't hear you calling to goon it up, just have people that can play hard, hit hard, and have their teammate's backs if needed.   Wilson is a good example.  

Same here.  I wonder how much effect the "new" kinder, gentler NHL has had on their game - more so than on any other team's game perhaps.  That was their identity in the 70's and 80's and even into the 90's.  They've lost that identity and haven't found a new one yet.  It's almost like the Flyers organization has gone gun-shy and buckled under the pressure of the League now calling every ticky-tack thing there is to call......mostly on the Flyers to make an example.  They play scared.  I hate to see this change in character, but after years of being singled out and targeted by the League, it's had a negative effect.  That, coupled with the general lack of talent of many of the players on this particular team, spells disaster and means we're more often than not dead in the water.  I'm still rooting for them though!  Like Charlie Brown, believing that Lucy really is going to hold that football in place.  I hope they can recover some of that old spark.  Get tough, get gritty, get dirty.

[King Knut]

On 3/9/2017 at 5:08 AM, icehole said:

The Flyers used to be the big, bruising, bully team that nobody wanted to play.  They went a much smaller direction, got rid of the cotes, carcillos, rinaldos, and sestitios, in favor or bellemares and vandeveldes.  I think most flyers fans are in favor of getting rid of those "goons" for more responsible players.

 

Does everyone know where Sestito ended up and has been for a couple of years...the Stanley Cup champion Pittsburgh penguins.  Jordan Tootoo isn't the most responsible cleanest player but Chicago likes his game.  Tom Wilson is a 1st round pick but he's know for his tough, sometimes dirty play.  I'm sure I could find a few other examples if I did my research.

 

There's a reason that these good teams keep guys like this around...because they play an important role on the team.  They sacrifice the PK ability of Bellemare and the hard work of Vandevelde and the faceoff percentage of Boyd Gordon to add cheap toughness to the team.

 

I don't like the direction the flyers are headed.  Eventually, I'm sure they'll be a good team, but they really lost what made the great and fun to watch.  They aren't the flyers anymore.

 

Their identity is that if losers. 

They have a losing culture now. 

They will be losers for a long time to come. 

 

Being this unsuccessful used to be u thinkable.  Now it's the norm.  

 

How Holmgren can sleep at night is beyond me. 

 

One terrible bad bad year every 10-15 years?  Barely acceptable. 

 

This team has been utter crap for 5 years. 

Shaky as hell since 2010 (which itself was a shaky year, but at least we all felt they were underperforming). 

 

They have an identity and clearly they are simply just losers. 

[King Knut]

9 hours ago, Poulin20 said:

 

I think what is so frustrating and is causing the angst among the fans this year is that we added some young players and we all kind of had this expectation that we are going to incrementally get better each year until we are in position to challenge for the Cup.  Rather than progressing this year it looks like we have regressed which is leading many to the conclusion that the rebuild is not working and that we will never compete with this group in charge.  While that is a possible outcome, it is way too early in the rebuild to know which way this is going to go which is why I am suspending judgement until I have more data to look at.  In the short term though it is a bad situation and extremely frustrating for sure.

 

Its not too early in the rebuild.  We are technically 6 years into this rebuild and three years into rthe build 2.0.  And  Talent isn't the problem. I hate hearing that. I know you didn't say it but it's just not true. 

 

This team has talent.  What it doesn't have is has a center.  There is nothing at the heart of it all.  Its all peripheral pieces.  No core.

 

trading Richards and Carter didn't work. 

I know most people hear hated them, but they along with Briere and Timmo were at least a strong core around which a mediocre team was built. 

 

They were competitive every year until dispatched.  And I do t mean that they shouldn't have been traded.  I don't. 

 

I mean Egan that they were not appropriately replaced.  

 

The fiest nest year they were gone what was lacking was masked by the strong ores nice of Jagr the hope of Coots and Schenn and then we were all distracted by the unnecessary bryzaster-coaster. 

 

But that was rebuild 1.0. It flopped when Homer gave up on it (which he did almost immediately) and then wasted two seasons spending lots of money on useless players and abandoning what he'd begun. 

 

Now hextall's cleaned up the cap mess for the most part and replaced the disaster of Berube, but the hole at the center of this team remains.  They are a ship withouT a keel.  Even if they had a rudder it wouldn't matter.  They just capsize over and over again. 

[RonJeremy]

Some of you have mentioned the bullies of the  mid 70s for their toughness , Those were definitely some tough teams, but the 79-80 team was the toughest of all....DuPont, Kelly, Bridgman, Holmgren and Wilson, I don't think you can find a tougher team anywhere. I don't think the Flyers need a goon but we certainly could use a  couple of guy like with skill and toughness like a Behn Wilson or Rick Tocchet .

[flyercanuck]

LOL...Provorov hitting the rookie wall (from HFBoards)

 

http://s448.photobucket.com/user/ricktick57/media/provygif1_zpsx4ycitsc.gif.html

[ruxpin]

56 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

LOL...Provorov hitting the rookie wall (from HFBoards)

 

http://s448.photobucket.com/user/ricktick57/media/provygif1_zpsx4ycitsc.gif.html

SMH

[CoachX]

Of the top tens teams leading the league in fighting majors, 6 are currently playoffs teams. Two are 3 points or less out of a playoff spot. On Dallas and Colorado are at the bottom of their division.

 

 Simple math, Tough teams = playoffs 60% of the time.

 

The Flyers have abandoned what made them the franchise they are, and I fear might lose their fan-base to some degree. When you look across the league, and see a large contingent of fans from out of market, and the same with many on this forum, you will find they were drawn to this team because of that physical style and reputation.

 

Damn! I miss Rick Tocchet

[ruxpin]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Of the top tens teams leading the league in fighting majors, 6 are currently playoffs teams. Two are 3 points or less out of a playoff spot. On Dallas and Colorado are at the bottom of their division.

 

 Simple math, Tough teams = playoffs 60% of the time.

 

The Flyers have abandoned what made them the franchise they are, and I fear might lose their fan-base to some degree. When you look across the league, and see a large contingent of fans from out of market, and the same with many on this forum, you will find they were drawn to this team because of that physical style and reputation.

 

Damn! I miss Rick Tocchet

You realize how foolish this argument is, right?  16 of 30 teams make the playoffs. So 54% of teams with hockey players at all make the playoffs. 60% of teams with tough guys making it statistically proves it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. 

 

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

You can be a tough team without having a goon in the lineup. It'd be nice to have a Tocchet type player in the lineup, but the way the game is now, he would never be effective because he'd be suspended most of the time for fighting.

 

In fairness though, the toughness is on it's way. Morin is a super tough dude who's been hammering people in Lehigh Valley while playing excellent defense in a pairing with Sanheim. Twarynski is putting everything together in the WHL and has been rejuvenated since his trade to Kelowna and Connor Bunnaman is 34 goal scorer in the OHL with Kitchener and plays with some snarl while not taking very many penalties. We also can't forget that Wade Allison had an excellent rookie year in the NCAA and he also brings some size and snarl to the lineup.

 

Tough guys in the game have to be smart now. You can be physical and play with snarl, but you have to be smart about it. I think that's what Hextall is trying to preach about fighting and the likes.

[caluso]

The truth of it is that while every team has "talent", the Flyers do not have enough talent to make a serious run at the Cup - this year or any year in the near future. The Filppula deal demonstrates that the team no longer has faith in either Schenn or Couturier as a top-tier center. Yet, upper management (including Hextall) re-upped both players, erroneously thinking that they were key components of the "core".  Laughable!

 

And, additionally, the construct of the team is seriously flawed -  which also falls on upper management. Clarke, Holmgren and Hextall believe that if you are a center, you could also play wing. How well has that worked out for the Flyers? The good news is that the Flyer forward core is very interchangeable; the bad news is that they are all interchangeable as bottom six guys. Bottom 6!

 

The harsh, harsh reality is that the team stinks. We could dissect the team's talent, player by player, and maybe we would agree, maybe we would disagree. What I do know for certain is that only Simmonds, Voracek, Provorov, Bellmare and Gudas have performed as expected. It is fair to say that all of the other "talent" has underperformed. 

[KjellShocked]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

You realize how foolish this argument is, right?  16 of 30 teams make the playoffs. So 54% of teams with hockey players at all make the playoffs. 60% of teams with tough guys making it statistically proves it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. 

 

 

This. Here's your evidence. The last 9 teams to win the Cup have finished 29th, 29th, 21st, 26th, 18th, 2nd, 21st, 23rd and 30th in fighting majors during the regular season.  The team with the best record in the NHL right now is 25th. 

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

You realize how foolish this argument is, right?  16 of 30 teams make the playoffs. So 54% of teams with hockey players at all make the playoffs. 60% of teams with tough guys making it statistically proves it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. 

 

 

My point was that right now, of the top 10 teams in fighting majors, 6 are playoff teams and 2 are on the bubble. Im not saying they will or wont win a cup, or that you have to have a goon to do so. Im just saying that you can play physical and be playoff team. You dont have to be a bunch of figure skaters.

 

Remember Im solely focusing on just those top 10 teams, not the entire league. Just for shits and giggles, if 16 teams make the playoffs, and 8 of them are in the top ten in fighting, thats somewhere between half and 50%

[csummers]

On 3/9/2017 at 5:08 AM, icehole said:

The Flyers used to be the big, bruising, bully team that nobody wanted to play.  They went a much smaller direction, got rid of the cotes, carcillos, rinaldos, and sestitios, in favor or bellemares and vandeveldes.  I think most flyers fans are in favor of getting rid of those "goons" for more responsible players.

 

Does everyone know where Sestito ended up and has been for a couple of years...the Stanley Cup champion Pittsburgh penguins.  Jordan Tootoo isn't the most responsible cleanest player but Chicago likes his game.  Tom Wilson is a 1st round pick but he's know for his tough, sometimes dirty play.  I'm sure I could find a few other examples if I did my research.

 

There's a reason that these good teams keep guys like this around...because they play an important role on the team.  They sacrifice the PK ability of Bellemare and the hard work of Vandevelde and the faceoff percentage of Boyd Gordon to add cheap toughness to the team.

 

I don't like the direction the flyers are headed.  Eventually, I'm sure they'll be a good team, but they really lost what made the great and fun to watch.  They aren't the flyers anymore.

 

 I thought they should have kept at least one of the rinaldos, traded one of the carcillos while one sestito should have been sent to the minors while the other stayed on the 4th line.. I still have hope for one of the vandeveldes where as the other one is hopeless. Its too early to give up on both the bellemares but maybe we could trade them both for a package players. Maybe pittsburg would part with one of the crosbys washington might give up one of the holtbys.

[caluso]

On 3/10/2017 at 7:10 PM, King Knut said:

 

Its not too early in the rebuild.  We are technically 6 years into this rebuild and three years into rthe build 2.0.  And  Talent isn't the problem. I hate hearing that. I know you didn't say it but it's just not true. 

 

This team has talent.  What it doesn't have is has a center.  There is nothing at the heart of it all.  Its all peripheral pieces.  No core.

 

trading Richards and Carter didn't work. 

I know most people hear hated them, but they along with Briere and Timmo were at least a strong core around which a mediocre team was built. 

 

They were competitive every year until dispatched.  And I do t mean that they shouldn't have been traded.  I don't. 

 

I mean Egan that they were not appropriately replaced.  

 

The fiest nest year they were gone what was lacking was masked by the strong ores nice of Jagr the hope of Coots and Schenn and then we were all distracted by the unnecessary bryzaster-coaster. 

 

But that was rebuild 1.0. It flopped when Homer gave up on it (which he did almost immediately) and then wasted two seasons spending lots of money on useless players and abandoning what he'd begun. 

 

Now hextall's cleaned up the cap mess for the most part and replaced the disaster of Berube, but the hole at the center of this team remains.  They are a ship withouT a keel.  Even if they had a rudder it wouldn't matter.  They just capsize over and over again. 

I actually liked Berube. I am not sure about Hakstol, though. Almost everybody has taken a step back under his tutelage.

For the record: Berube was 75-58; Hakstol is 72-55. If Berube was a "disaster," I guess Hakstol is, as well.

Interesting read:

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-flyers/minus-16-road-claude-giroux-needs-better-matchups

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

My point was that right now, of the top 10 teams in fighting majors, 6 are playoff teams and 2 are on the bubble. Im not saying they will or wont win a cup, or that you have to have a goon to do so. Im just saying that you can play physical and be playoff team. You dont have to be a bunch of figure skaters.

 

Remember Im solely focusing on just those top 10 teams, not the entire league. Just for shits and giggles, if 16 teams make the playoffs, and 8 of them are in the top ten in fighting, thats somewhere between half and 50%

 

I get your point.  I'm not sure you got mine.

 

The percentage of making the playoffs with goons and without doesn't change.  It's still 6 of 10 either way.   So have a goon or don't have a goon, doesn't matter based on the 6 out of 10 stat.

[CoachX]

i read your post 10 times....i still dont get it

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

i read your post 10 times....i still dont get it

 

Oh dear God.  [rolls eyes].  I'll type slowly, because this isn't tough.

 

You said, as if it was insightful:

6 hours ago, CoachX said:

Of the top tens teams leading the league in fighting majors, 6 are currently playoffs teams. Two are 3 points or less out of a playoff spot. On Dallas and Colorado are at the bottom of their division.

 

 Simple math, Tough teams = playoffs 60% of the time.

 

Seemingly an argument for having fighters because it increases odds...or something,.  If that wasn't the point, I haven't the foggiest idea what you were trying to prove with the "simple math."

 

Here's more simple math:  :

6 hours ago, ruxpin said:

You realize how foolish this argument is, right?  16 of 30 teams make the playoffs. So 54% of teams with hockey players at all make the playoffs. 60% of teams with tough guys making it statistically proves it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. 

 

I said this to point out that at 16 teams making the playoffs out of 30 teams, the odds are already 54%   A statistical dead heat with your "run out and get fighters because it increases your chances".  Having a fighter or not having a fighter does NOT effectively statistically change a team's chances of making the playoffs.     

 

So your own "simple math"  proved absolutely nothing about fighting.  All it proves is that a team's chances of making the playoffs doesn't change whatsoever relative to whether or not they have a fighter or lead the league in fighting.  IT'S A ROUGHLY 60% CHANCE EITHER WAY.

 

None of this is me arguing whether or not a team -- the Flyers in particular -- should have a fighter.  Just that your "simple math" proved the opposite of what you intended.

[ruxpin]

In other news, in a class of 100, 60 people graduate.

 

But of the 10 people who had blue notebooks, 6 people graduated.  So you, too, should have a blue notebook or you're missing out on better odds of graduating.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

I never had a blue notebook...