Flyers Identitiy

[icehole]

The Flyers used to be the big, bruising, bully team that nobody wanted to play.  They went a much smaller direction, got rid of the cotes, carcillos, rinaldos, and sestitios, in favor or bellemares and vandeveldes.  I think most flyers fans are in favor of getting rid of those "goons" for more responsible players.

 

Does everyone know where Sestito ended up and has been for a couple of years...the Stanley Cup champion Pittsburgh penguins.  Jordan Tootoo isn't the most responsible cleanest player but Chicago likes his game.  Tom Wilson is a 1st round pick but he's know for his tough, sometimes dirty play.  I'm sure I could find a few other examples if I did my research.

 

There's a reason that these good teams keep guys like this around...because they play an important role on the team.  They sacrifice the PK ability of Bellemare and the hard work of Vandevelde and the faceoff percentage of Boyd Gordon to add cheap toughness to the team.

 

I don't like the direction the flyers are headed.  Eventually, I'm sure they'll be a good team, but they really lost what made the great and fun to watch.  They aren't the flyers anymore.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

Does everyone know where Sestito ended up and has been for a couple of years...the Stanley Cup champion Pittsburgh penguins

 

Not the best example.   He's on the Penguins, but it's the AHL Scranton/WB Penguins.   He got called up last night for his 9th game of the season after a total of 4 NHL games last year and 3 the previous year with Vancouver.

 

This is Tootoo's first year on Chicago.  He just has his 4th fight of the year in his 38th game.    He's still probably a decent example of what you're trying to say.

 

I'd like to add toughness as well.  It doesn't have to be a complete idiot like Rinaldo or Downie, but someone with some character.  

 

The team has no character.   The Pens/Flyers rivalry a few years ago because both teams had some characters.  Hartnell, Carcillo (still and idiot) and Asham among others on the Flyers.   Even Richards could throw and stand in for a teammate Kennedy and Talbot on the Pens (or the Flyers in Talbot's case).

 

I grew up with the Bullies in the 70s.    A team that stood together in the 80s.  Those days have passed.  I don't hear you calling to goon it up, just have people that can play hard, hit hard, and have their teammate's backs if needed.   Wilson is a good example.    

 

Simmonds was a good example, but as he's aging and having to take on more of a responsible role, he's really no longer that guy.

 

This team has no identity because the players have no character (with only a couple exceptions, Simmonds coming to mind first).

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Those goon types don't win Cups in the new era of hockey. Flyers went that route for awhile now and have zero Cups to show for it the last 20 years or so.

 

Hawks and Kings had no goons on their Cup teams. Unless you want to count Carcillo who contributed exactly zilch to their Quest.

 

Sure Flyers need size and a sniper or two maybe some more grit even in the bottom 6.

 

But no Tootoo is not what they are missing.

[OccamsRazor]

And tonight is the Flyer's biggest game of the season up till this point.

 

And a Tootoo isn't going to help them win this thing!

[icehole]

59 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Not the best example.   He's on the Penguins, but it's the AHL Scranton/WB Penguins.   He got called up last night for his 9th game of the season after a total of 4 NHL games last year and 3 the previous year with Vancouver.

 

This is Tootoo's first year on Chicago.  He just has his 4th fight of the year in his 38th game.    He's still probably a decent example of what you're trying to say.

 

I'd like to add toughness as well.  It doesn't have to be a complete idiot like Rinaldo or Downie, but someone with some character.  

 

The team has no character.   The Pens/Flyers rivalry a few years ago because both teams had some characters.  Hartnell, Carcillo (still and idiot) and Asham among others on the Flyers.   Even Richards could throw and stand in for a teammate Kennedy and Talbot on the Pens (or the Flyers in Talbot's case).

 

I grew up with the Bullies in the 70s.    A team that stood together in the 80s.  Those days have passed.  I don't hear you calling to goon it up, just have people that can play hard, hit hard, and have their teammate's backs if needed.   Wilson is a good example.    

 

Simmonds was a good example, but as he's aging and having to take on more of a responsible role, he's really no longer that guy.

 

This team has no identity because the players have no character (with only a couple exceptions, Simmonds coming to mind first).

 

 

 

Yeah.  The reason I thought of this today is because I saw Sestito had a dirty hit in last night's game.  I looked at his stats after I wrote this and saw that he hasn't been in the lineup very much this season.  

 

He has been in the penguins organization for a couple years now though, so there must be a reason they acquired him and kept him.  I know last night was expected to be heated, so I'm guessing they brought him up for that.  That sort of immaturity and baffoonery has been frowned upon by the flyers and their fans, but is it a bad thing?  Are the penguins on a downward spiral or do they know what they're doing?  Who could/would the flyers bring up in the case of a dirty game?

 

I agree with Simmonds.  He is arguably the best player on the team and he can't be going off the ice for 5+ minutes at a time.  The problem is that he is also the toughest player on the team.  And that's my point.  It would be nice to have a disposable player to take care of business.

 

I would probably trade any one of 7 or 8 flyers forwards for Wilson.  I don't think he was on the score sheet the other night, but he was all around the action all night.  He started off trying to take Simmonds off his game.  Then he drew a penalty and had some scoring chances.  He is very skilled, big, and tough.

 

The way this team is currently constructed, I don't want to add a goon.  This team needs scoring the most.  Once that is established though, couturier can center the third line with some decent responsible wings, and the 4th line can consist of a goon and two energy forward with one purpose to wear other players out and make them think twice about holding onto the puck too long.

 

 

[Bertmega]

If only we had a toughfighter......83

[flyerrod]

10 minutes ago, icehole said:

I would probably trade any one of 7 or 8 flyers forwards for Wilson.  I don't think he was on the score sheet the other night, but he was all around the action all night.  He started off trying to take Simmonds off his game.  Then he drew a penalty and had some scoring chances.  He is very skilled, big, and tough.

If Wilson were a Flyer, he would spend more time in the box than he would on the ice. Don't get me wrong, I would love a player like Wilson on the Flyers but he would be wearing a target for penalties as soon as he donned the . We already have Gudas who gets wrongly penalized for what should have been legal hits.

[flyercanuck]

3 hours ago, icehole said:

The Flyers used to be the big, bruising, bully team that nobody wanted to play.  They went a much smaller direction, got rid of the cotes, carcillos, rinaldos, and sestitios, in favor or bellemares and vandeveldes.  I think most flyers fans are in favor of getting rid of those "goons" for more responsible players.

 

Does everyone know where Sestito ended up and has been for a couple of years...the Stanley Cup champion Pittsburgh penguins.  Jordan Tootoo isn't the most responsible cleanest player but Chicago likes his game.  Tom Wilson is a 1st round pick but he's know for his tough, sometimes dirty play.  I'm sure I could find a few other examples if I did my research.

 

There's a reason that these good teams keep guys like this around...because they play an important role on the team.  They sacrifice the PK ability of Bellemare and the hard work of Vandevelde and the faceoff percentage of Boyd Gordon to add cheap toughness to the team.

 

I don't like the direction the flyers are headed.  Eventually, I'm sure they'll be a good team, but they really lost what made the great and fun to watch.  They aren't the flyers anymore.

 

 While i get what you're saying, not sure the players you mentioned are good examples. Sestito is only an NHL player if the Pens think things might get out of hand. Tootoo would likely be despised on the Flyers...he has ONE point this year. Wilson....if the Flyers wasted that high of a pick on a hitter I'd be furious. I wouldn't mind having him on my team, but not for a 1st round pick. 

 

 Simmonds is actually a better example than any of those guys, but the Flyers have moved away from the Broad Street Bullies...and when they aren't winning it was always nice to at least put some fear into teams.

 

 I'm all for tough guys who can play. The Tocchets and Richards types were always my type of player. But I can do without the Rinaldos and Carcillos.

[icehole]

4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 While i get what you're saying, not sure the players you mentioned are good examples. Sestito is only an NHL player if the Pens think things might get out of hand. Tootoo would likely be despised on the Flyers...he has ONE point this year. Wilson....if the Flyers wasted that high of a pick on a hitter I'd be furious. I wouldn't mind having him on my team, but not for a 1st round pick. 

 

 Simmonds is actually a better example than any of those guys, but the Flyers have moved away from the Broad Street Bullies...and when they aren't winning it was always nice to at least put some fear into teams.

 

 I'm all for tough guys who can play. The Tocchets and Richards types were always my type of player. But I can do without the Rinaldos and Carcillos.

Sestito is and isn't a bad example.  I didn't realize he hasn't played many NHL games this season, but he does get the call-up like the flyers used to do.  Like I said, it does seem a little immature, but the Stanley Cup champions still do it.  I think they know what they're doing.

 

I don't want any of these guys on the team right now.  The flyers would just be a losing team that gets into stupid fights.  Or maybe they would have a different identity that turns the season around...who knows.  I'd take 1 point Tootoo if the flyers had a couple 30 goal scorers and a few 20 goal scorers.  But for now, let's concentrate on skill...we can add toughness later (let's just hope they plan to add toughness at some point).

 

Tocchets and Richards are great, but the problem is keeping them on the payroll.  If they make money, they can't afford to be in the box.

 

 

 

 

[vis]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

And tonight is the Flyer's biggest game of the season up till this point.

 

And a Tootoo isn't going to help them win this thing!

No, but I bet a guy like Matt Martin has kept things on the level for the kids in TO and has help them grow and win.

 

If guys like him are unnecessary, why did two of arguably the smartest hockey guys in the league see fit to sign him?

 

I wish Hextall had gone after him in the offseason.  I get that his contract is a bit rich, but did the Flyers even pursue him?

 

Or maybe this article might shed some light on his importance: http://www.torontosun.com/2017/01/02/underappreciated-maple-leafs-forward-matt-martin-finding-ways-to-contribute

[mojo1917]

Wasn't Dale Weisse supposed to be "that guy" ?

A hard to play against forward, who could throw if necessary. A mature "character" guy ?

#22 hasn't lived up to any of the expectations I had for him. (or anyone else's for that matter)  Truth be told, I'd have preferred to have kept Ryan White around. 

I know Weisse was supposed to be a bigger, better skating version of Ryan White but that hasn't materialized.

So actually, it's not really for a lack of trying to have that character guy on the roster, it's just that DW seems to think his role is more of a top 6 scoring player rather than a bottom 6 grinder.  

Like I said I'd rather still have Ryan White around.

 

[murraycraven]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Wasn't Dale Weisse supposed to be "that guy" ?

A hard to play against forward, who could throw if necessary. A mature "character" guy ?

#22 hasn't lived up to any of the expectations I had for him. (or anyone else's for that matter)  Truth be told, I'd have preferred to have kept Ryan White around. 

I know Weisse was supposed to be a bigger, better skating version of Ryan White but that hasn't materialized.

So actually, it's not really for a lack of trying to have that character guy on the roster, it's just that DW seems to think his role is more of a top 6 scoring player rather than a bottom 6 grinder.  

Like I said I'd rather still have Ryan White around.

 

 

 

I actually like Ryan White.... he could throw, agitate people, hit and score the occasional goal.  From what I remember I thought White wanted to be paid and the Flyers were not willing to give him the money he was seeking.   I would have rather overpaid White than overpaid Weise - the guy literally brings NOTHING to the table and I pray to the heavens he is taken by Vegas.   I doubt it but one can hope right?

 

Outside of Simmer there is really no personality on the ice w/ this current roster.

 

 

 

 

[RJ8812]

We are a soft team. It's quite sad 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, vis said:

No, but I bet a guy like Matt Martin has kept things on the level for the kids in TO and has help them grow and win.

 

If guys like him are unnecessary, why did two of arguably the smartest hockey guys in the league see fit to sign him?

 

I wish Hextall had gone after him in the offseason.  I get that his contract is a bit rich, but did the Flyers even pursue him?

 

Or maybe this article might shed some light on his importance: http://www.torontosun.com/2017/01/02/underappreciated-maple-leafs-forward-matt-martin-finding-ways-to-contribute

 

As has been stated before i could Weise is suppose to bring that.

 

But they should have just resigned White whom broke your boy's (Martin) nose last time they dropped when he was a Flyer.

 

Not sure why they let him go and signed Weise to a bigger deal...it hasn't looked like a smart move yet...and i'm ok with guys like White who can play as well it is how it should be the Jody Shellys need not apply...

[vis]

Would have kept White as well, but would have preferred Martin - broken-nose and all.

 

I don't think Weise has ever been in the same realm as White and Martin.  

[vis]

40 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Wasn't Dale Weisse supposed to be "that guy" ?

A hard to play against forward, who could throw if necessary. A mature "character" guy ?

#22 hasn't lived up to any of the expectations I had for him. (or anyone else's for that matter)  Truth be told, I'd have preferred to have kept Ryan White around. 

I know Weisse was supposed to be a bigger, better skating version of Ryan White but that hasn't materialized.

So actually, it's not really for a lack of trying to have that character guy on the roster, it's just that DW seems to think his role is more of a top 6 scoring player rather than a bottom 6 grinder.  

Like I said I'd rather still have Ryan White around.

 

I don't understand why people thought Weise would be a White- or Martin-type player.  Guy had 24PIMs last year and 34PIMs the year before that.  I don't even know if he had a fight last year.  He had two the year before, according to hockeyfights.com.

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, vis said:

I don't understand why people thought Weise would be a White- or Martin-type player.  Guy had 24PIMs last year and 34PIMs the year before that.  I don't even know if he had a fight last year.  He had two the year before, according to hockeyfights.com.

Exactly.  He's not a White or Martin-type.   That's not what he was brought here for, either.  Yes, he had the appearance of replacing White's roster spot, but not his role.   I would begin to argue it's been successful, but he was brought to spot Giroux from defensive zone starts, take some draws off Giroux, and try to be a defensive guy.

 

I wasn't excited at the time and would have preferred White, but I get what they were trying to do.  

 

But yes, White is one more "character" guy who is no longer here that would defend teammates and make opposing players aware he was on the ice.   I don't think anyone in the building (players, fans, vendors, his parents) is aware Weise is on the ice.

[murraycraven]

5 minutes ago, vis said:

I don't understand why people thought Weise would be a White- or Martin-type player.  Guy had 24PIMs last year and 34PIMs the year before that.  I don't even know if he had a fight last year.  He had two the year before, according to hockeyfights.com.

 

 

Here is Hextall when he signed Weise - not sure he ever watched him play before signing:

 

 

"Dale Weise gives us size (6-foot-2, 206 pounds), gives us some speed, he gives us some tenacious play, he plays with an edge," Flyers general manager Ron Hextall said. "He's got some pretty good hands. He can add to our depth scoring, our top-nine scoring. One of the areas we identified that we wanted to add some depth to [was] our top three lines and we feel we did that with Dale."

 

We tried to sign White again this morning and we couldn't find common ground," Hextall said. "We appreciate everything White did for us. He was a good soldier and we certainly wish him the best."

[vis]

Just now, ruxpin said:

I don't think anyone in the building (players, fans, vendors, his parents) is aware Weise is on the ice.

lol, agree.

 

the roster is littered with players who are not hard to play against, don't seem to be "glue/character" guys and certainly are not deterrents to any kind of shenanigans.  having the likes of White or Martin would be nice.

[Poulin20]

10 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 I don't think anyone in the building (players, fans, vendors, his parents) is aware Weise is on the ice.

Oh I am fully aware as every time he is out there because almost every time I see a missed chance or a bad pass or a broken coverage I look to see who it was and then end up grumbling to myself and then screaming at him "JUST GET OFF THE ICE WEISE" or "YOU SUCK WEISE!"

[flyer4ever]

The Flyers do have an identity. They business plan and the hockey plan are to be mediocre and sneak into 8th place. That is the plan. That is their identity. That will never change. They are a corporate entity, not a hockey team. Nothing in the last 6 years has happened to make me change my mind. Thats why they keep hiring alumni guys as GM. So they will toe the party line. It would give me great joy to see the season ticket holders all say no thanks next season. Maybe that would get their attention.

[Poulin20]

 

10 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

The Flyers do have an identity. They business plan and the hockey plan are to be mediocre and sneak into 8th place. That is the plan. That is their identity. That will never change. They are a corporate entity, not a hockey team. Nothing in the last 6 years has happened to make me change my mind. Thats why they keep hiring alumni guys as GM. So they will toe the party line. It would give me great joy to see the season ticket holders all say no thanks next season. Maybe that would get their attention.

 

While I share your frustration I don't think that is what the Flyers have become yet.  I could see that happening in the future the further removed we are from Ed Snider's death but for now I don't think that the corporate desire to make money has driven the failures of this team.  Ed, Clarkie, Homer, and Hexy were/are wildly competitive and want(ed) nothing more than to win.  They overpaid for players routinely and spent up to the cap.  The issue in my mind is that in their zeal to win was their downfall as they made big, foolish, and impulsive moves that didn't work, this continued into the salary cap era which hurt them even more.  Now we are finally trying to be practical and operate within the system set up by the NHL but we are way behind other teams and it is going to take a while to clean up this mess.  We all hate to see the state of the team right now and are frustrated but unfortunately this mess was many years in the making and is going to take years to fix.  Although Hexy has made some mistakes along the way in the short term I am willing to give him a chance in the long term to build something sustainable that we can all enjoy. (fingers crossed anyway). 

[off_the_post]

18 minutes ago, Poulin20 said:

 

 

While I share your frustration I don't think that is what the Flyers have become yet.  I could see that happening in the future the further removed we are from Ed Snider's death but for now I don't think that the corporate desire to make money has driven the failures of this team.  Ed, Clarkie, Homer, and Hexy were/are wildly competitive and want(ed) nothing more than to win.  They overpaid for players routinely and spent up to the cap.  The issue in my mind is that in their zeal to win was their downfall as they made big, foolish, and impulsive moves that didn't work, this continued into the salary cap era which hurt them even more.  Now we are finally trying to be practical and operate within the system set up by the NHL but we are way behind other teams and it is going to take a while to clean up this mess.  We all hate to see the state of the team right now and are frustrated but unfortunately this mess was many years in the making and is going to take years to fix.  Although Hexy has made some mistakes along the way in the short term I am willing to give him a chance in the long term to build something sustainable that we can all enjoy. (fingers crossed anyway). 

Only issue with this post is that I can only like it once.  I can see the light ahead.  It is a lot further down the road than I'd hope but I see it with the defense and goalie depth in the system. 

[Podein25]

The Flyers have an identity and it is: THE PLACE WHERE GOALIES GO TO DIE

[flyerrod]

1 hour ago, Poulin20 said:

 "JUST GET OFF THE ICE WEISE"MacDud or "YOU SUCK WEISE!"MacDud.

There, fixed it for ya.