Don't Expect Much From an "Aggressive Retool"

[SCFlyguy]

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

So how many of those types of players do the Flyer in your eyes??

0-1, lol.

[GrittyForever]

If I had to bet right now I'd say they will hire Tocchet. 

 

As for aggressive retools, haven't seen any evidence that anything of that sort will take place. 

 

If for some reason it does happen, the way the team is structured now it'll take a few years just to deconstruct it which is step one before any sort of reconstruction can happen. Very much doubt that's their plan. Although maybe it should be. 

[flyercanuck]

3 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

If I had to bet right now I'd say they will hire Tocchet. 

 

As for aggressive retools, haven't seen any evidence that anything of that sort will take place. 

 

If for some reason it does happen, the way the team is structured now it'll take a few years just to deconstruct it which is step one before any sort of reconstruction can happen. Very much doubt that's their plan. Although maybe it should be. 

 

 There was an aggressive retool last offseason by Fletcher and co.

 

 And here we sit currently 5th worst team in the entire league, barely ahead of the expansion Kraken. The hardest parts to deconstruct are what Fletcher built.

 

 It's hard to believe our management aren't partners with Elon Musk isn't it?

[CoachX]

8 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

If I had to bet right now I'd say they will hire Tocchet. 

 

As for aggressive retools, haven't seen any evidence that anything of that sort will take place. 

 

If for some reason it does happen, the way the team is structured now it'll take a few years just to deconstruct it which is step one before any sort of reconstruction can happen. Very much doubt that's their plan. Although maybe it should be. 

the flyers have been in the middle of an aggressive retool for decades. they repeatedly hire tools to run the front office.

 

hiring tocchet would be more of the same,so they probably will do it. I mean why go after an established head coach when you can hire a former player, cheaper. I believe I read AV was making 5 mil a year. Tocchet is worth half that, maybe. He hasn't accomplished much as a head coach, so what would make him think he deserves AV type money. But hey, I'm sure he would tow the line and be a YES man. these are traits the flyers are always looking for. Just ask Dany Briere

[Cheesesteak]

On 4/3/2022 at 3:09 AM, GratefulFlyers said:

But this summer he’s got to hit home runs. The Flyers need a few trades that are clear wins for the team; no more of the patented Fletcher type where he gives away more than he gets. 

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

On 4/3/2022 at 3:09 AM, GratefulFlyers said:

 

That aside I’m pulling for the guy. He’s made some good moves. And injuries did derail his plans in a big way. But this summer he’s got to hit home runs. The Flyers need a few trades that are clear wins for the team; no more of the patented Fletcher type where he gives away more than he gets. 

 

 The guy has made an 11 year NHL career as a GM by being (A) Cliff Fletchers son, and (B) taken to the cleaners on a regular basis with his trades and free agent signings. I don't see him changing his modus operandi at this point.

[RonJeremy]

9 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 There was an aggressive retool last offseason by Fletcher and co.

 

 And here we sit currently 5th worst team in the entire league, barely ahead of the expansion Kraken. The hardest parts to deconstruct are what Fletcher built.

 

 It's hard to believe our management aren't partners with Elon Musk isn't it?

I just don't even see what this aggressive retool  is supposed to entail. The potential UFAs like Kadri, Godreau  etc are going to cost a fortune and want long term contracts. The team is 3-4 years away from possibly being good , so it makes no sense to go after any of them. We will already have a diminished  Coots,Hayes, Ellis and Atkinson by the time this team is a contender, so any guys we sign now will also be on the downturn in 4-5 years.

 

The only other option for this retool is trading some of our current players like Konecny, Provorov, etc for other teams players. I don't see how that makes the team better. Are you going to get a 50 goal scorer for Konecny or a Norris trophy winner for Provorov? No , all your gonna do is trade your players for similar players . We need to make a Recchi for Desjardins and LeClair type of trade to see any type of big improvement and that's a long shot .

[flyercanuck]

16 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I just don't even see what this aggressive retool  is supposed to entail. The potential UFAs like Kadri, Godreau  etc are going to cost a fortune and want long term contracts. The team is 3-4 years away from possibly being good , so it makes no sense to go after any of them. We will already have a diminished  Coots,Hayes, Ellis and Atkinson by the time this team is a contender, so any guys we sign now will also be on the downturn in 4-5 years.

 

 Right. The guys available to sign are going to be the same type of players Fletcher has already brought in. overpaid and past their prime, signed until they're waaaaay past their prime.

 

16 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

 

The only other option for this retool is trading some of our current players like Konecny, Provorov, etc for other teams players. I don't see how that makes the team better. Are you going to get a 50 goal scorer for Konecny or a Norris trophy winner for Provorov? No , all your gonna do is trade your players for similar players . We need to make a Recchi for Desjardins and LeClair type of trade to see any type of big improvement and that's a long shot .

 

 I'd bet Konecny could score close to 40 on a team that knows what the hell they're doing. And I'd bet Provorov could regain his form as a rock solid #2/not bad #1 defenceman on the same sort of team.

[GratefulFlyers]

37 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 The guy has made an 11 year NHL career as a GM by being (A) Cliff Fletchers son, and (B) taken to the cleaners on a regular basis with his trades and free agent signings. I don't see him changing his modus operandi at this point.

Sure, and I’m not expecting Fletcher to suddenly “change his spots” and become another Yzerman or Poile. But I think we can reasonably hope that he won’t get taken to the cleaners on every trade he makes this summer.
 

Still there’s no getting around the fact that even if he does “win” a trade or two it won’t signal a change in philosophy, which you and others have suggested is the real problem for the Flyers. I agree. Continually going after the “name” FA, throwing away picks like they’re useless appendages and overpaying aging and/or overrated veterans has not served the Flyers well.  It’s clear to me that Fletcher, at his best, will be just another GM who pursues this failed “strategy.”

 

But I have to remain somewhat hopeful bc there’s really no alternative. So even if it’s a case of the broken clock being right twice a day, maybe, Hockey Gods willing, Fletcher will stumble into a few good pickups this summer. 

[flyercanuck]

10 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Sure, and I’m not expecting Fletcher to suddenly “change his spots” and become another Yzerman or Poile. But I think we can reasonably hope that he won’t get taken to the cleaners on every trade he makes this summer.
 

Still there’s no getting around the fact that even if he does “win” a trade or two it won’t signal a change in philosophy, which you and others have suggested is the real problem for the Flyers. I agree. Continually going after the “name” FA, throwing away picks like they’re useless appendages and overpaying aging and/or overrated veterans has not served the Flyers well.  It’s clear to me that Fletcher, at his best, will be just another GM who pursues this failed “strategy.”

 

But I have to remain somewhat hopeful bc there’s really no alternative. So even if it’s a case of the broken clock being right twice a day, maybe, Hockey Gods willing, Fletcher will stumble into a few good pickups this summer. 

 

 Honestly all I'm hoping for is that he drafts some decent talent, doesn't trade away ALL our picks and young guys, and gets fired. 

 

 Is that too much to ask?

[GratefulFlyers]

12 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Is that too much to ask?

god I sure hope not. The “gets fired” part may be a reach until around Christmas, assuming the Flyers are still under .500. I’m guessing he’ll be allowed at least 20 or 30 games.
 

If he can just not sign the Big Name FA this summer I’ll call that progress and enough of a “win.”

[OccamsRazor]

Funniest thing i have seen today...

 

 

 

 

 

[flyer4ever]

Homer Clarke and Scott are going nowhere. Until they do it's more of the same. Their stubbornness,  arrogance and ignorance about what it takes to win today will never change. Yandle is the poster boy of their failed philosophy. The only way it changes is for the seats to sit empty for a season or 3.

[OccamsRazor]

7 hours ago, CoachX said:

they repeatedly hire tools to run the front office.

 

 

[GrittyForever]

4 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

The only other option for this retool is trading some of our current players like Konecny, Provorov, etc for other teams players. I don't see how that makes the team better. Are you going to get a 50 goal scorer for Konecny or a Norris trophy winner for Provorov? No , all your gonna do is trade your players for similar players . We need to make a Recchi for Desjardins and LeClair type of trade to see any type of big improvement and that's a long shot .

No you're going to trade a guy like Provorov for a 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder and some Jag D man to temporarily fill the spot that you can flip later for a 6th rounder - oh wait, they do the opposite.

 

I agree with you though. An impact hockey deal is unlikely. maybe you can swap a D man for a forward and vice versa and get lucky but it would be a gamble. Player you get would have to have untapped potential or be unhappy where he is or something like that. Could go the other way and make us worse just as easily. 

 

Mostly you either dump your vets for picks and start over or you stay the course and flounder hoping for a breakthrough player(s) to emerge. Building through free agency never works. Drafting poorly sinks a team and constant changes in direction rarely work either. 

 

As ever, define the plan, support the plan, and stick to the plan, but we seem to have no plan. A little of this and a little of that and a new guy or new coach here and there adds up to a big old mess.

[FD19372]

My aggressive retool:

 

Replacing these guys...

 

 

With these guys...

[Poconono]

On 3/31/2022 at 4:58 PM, flyer4ever said:

Is there any reason in Chuckles tenure here to believe that the Flyers will improve anytime prior to him being relieved of his duties? I say nay nay. Unless he is being very sly and trying to bottom out next year for Connor Bedard. 

My fear is that Fletcher will make more idiotic moves where he gives away valuable assets and cap space to bring in some middling level vets good enough to get this team into next year's playoffs where they will inevitably be eliminated in the first round.  Thus negating any shot at one of the top 2 picks.  Stay the course and continue to stink say I.  But that's never been the Flyer Way.  As long as they make a few extra bucks in the playoffs ownership is thrilled.

[Cheesesteak]

15 hours ago, FD19372 said:

With these guys...

lol

[Poconono]

20 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

The only way this is happening is if Dave Scott is replaced, who in turn, replaces Holmgren.  But I don't see that happening.  At least not for years.

Can we get Elon Musk to buy the Flyers?

[flyercanuck]

9 minutes ago, Poconono said:

Can we get Elon Musk to buy the Flyers?

 

 He could get his wife, who knows nothing about hockey, to run the team better than it is.

[mkscrewy]

"Don't Expect Much" could be the 2022-23 season motto on a t-shirt.

[flyer4ever]

53 minutes ago, FireDillabaugh said:

Agree.  But, I think it was 10 years ago now that Clarke admitted to not having much involvement any longer aside from Holmgren asking his opinion from time to time, and that the fire he once had for management was gone.  I think he's probably even less involved now, if anything.  I would think he was probably even hesitant if asked about bringing Chuck in, since he knew very well how Cliff struggled.  And, if he realized that, he certainly realized how Chuck had struggled his entire career.  I think this current team is all about the cancer that is Holmgren.  And when Dave Scott is above him, knowing next to nothing about hockey management or the game, he's left to rely on Holmgren's ideas and tactics.  While it sounds like Clarke still likes to go to his office in Voorhees, I don't think he's involved much, if at all, in the management side of things.  I think now, at 72, he's much more concerned with his golf game.  He was a great player with exactly what players on this current roster need more of.  But, he's also a modest, humble man who knows very well that he wasn't a very good manager overall.  I think he's the first to admit to that.  And, I think Holmgren has a much larger ego, is not the humble man that Clarke is, and is VERY hesitant to admit to any mistakes he makes.

 

But, yes.  I agree.  Getting Holmgren and Scott out of their positions look to be the only way that the proper changes in philosophy are going to happen.  And, in turn, getting Chuck out of his position.

Nice insights on REC. He was god to me when I was a kid playing hockey in Ontario. Would be awesome to see a Flyer Cup before he's gone, would take a miracle in the current atmosphere.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, mkscrewy said:

"Don't Expect Much" could be the 2022-23 season motto on a t-shirt.

 

Been wearing that t-shirt since Fletch was hired. 

[flyer4ever]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Been wearing that t-shirt since Fletch was hired. 

Mines tie dyed with a couple of roach burns .

[mojo1917]

4 hours ago, mkscrewy said:

"Don't Expect Much" could be the 2022-23 season motto on a t-shirt.

Maybe with an appropriated Failure Fantasic Planet grx treatment...

 

I know a guy...