radoran Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, flyerdog said: If he is deemed not culpable, how does that affect things because public perception can be worse than even a legal proceeding "Not culpable" and "innocent" are two different things. A lot depends on what comes out and that will color public perception more than now. Full, actual, and real exoneration means he probably keeps a career. I deliberately haven't sought out details of this case because the entire thing repulses me. I hope the Canadian legal system works well, whatever the result. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, radoran said: "Not culpable" and "innocent" are two different things. A lot depends on what comes out and that will color public perception more than now. Full, actual, and real exoneration means he probably keeps a career. I deliberately haven't sought out details of this case because the entire thing repulses me. I hope the Canadian legal system works well, whatever the result. There's video. Depending what's on that video and whether it makes it to the public, this could increase the damage to careers exponentially in addition to whatever a court does. Lots of "coulds" here 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunatic Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 On 1/25/2024 at 8:50 PM, SCFlyguy said: You're neglecting the fact that Hart and the other players were "cleared" by what apparently was a sham police investigation nearly intended to clear them. I am repulsed by the supposed actions of these players. I still have to ask, not knowing Canadian law, but doesn't double jeopardy apply here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Lunatic said: I am repulsed by the supposed actions of these players. I still have to ask, not knowing Canadian law, but doesn't double jeopardy apply here? Canadians, like people in the US, are protected against the state re-trying you for the same crime, as stated in Provision 11h of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms: Quote Any person charged with an offence has the right: if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; None of the players have yet been charged, let alone tried yet, so that Provision doesn't come in to play at this time. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 7 hours ago, flyerrod said: So many of these accusations are strictly a money grab. Trevor Bauer(sp?) really stands out. He was hung out to dry before anything was investigated and turns out they were totally fabricated charges. He is still screwed out of millions despite being totally cleared of all allegations. I do not want to see guilty people go free either but boy is the timing questionable at best. Why is the timing questionable? The length of the investigation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SCFlyguy Posted January 28 Popular Post Share Posted January 28 The only thing questionable about this case is why the police didn’t do their job the first time around and had to be embarrassed into doing it the second time. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmc687 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 On 1/25/2024 at 10:50 PM, SCFlyguy said: You're neglecting the fact that Hart and the other players were "cleared" by what apparently was a sham police investigation nearly intended to clear them. It is odd and disturbing how many posters here, presumably men, are already projecting Hart guilty of any and all charges. This only reinforces my point that when a man is charged w sexual assault it does severe damage regardless of trial outcome. And this has already ruined 1 professional career (that we know of) but I'm sure many more. Anyhow, I'll wait till the hearing plays out before making accusations. The only information available right now are just stories because nobody really knows anything yet. And reading grown men get emotional and angry about stories is a good laugh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 47 minutes ago, hmc687 said: It is odd and disturbing how many posters here, presumably men, are already projecting Hart guilty of any and all charges. This only reinforces my point that when a man is charged w sexual assault it does severe damage regardless of trial outcome. And this has already ruined 1 professional career (that we know of) but I'm sure many more. Anyhow, I'll wait till the hearing plays out before making accusations. The only information available right now are just stories because nobody really knows anything yet. And reading grown men get emotional and angry about stories is a good laugh Good for you. Laugh. I didn't have much respect for you to begin with, so nothing lost 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 4 hours ago, JR Ewing said: Why is the timing questionable? The length of the investigation? Due to the length of time from the original investigation. I am not saying the original investigation was done correctly but why did it take 4 or 5 years to correct it? I can think of 83 million reasons why false accusations can and are made. Edited January 28 by flyerrod 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 5 hours ago, flyerrod said: Due to the length of time from the original investigation. I am not saying the original investigation was done correctly but why did it take 4 or 5 years to correct it? I can think of 83 million reasons why false accusations can and are made. Celebrity? Pro athletes? Some have got away with murder. I'd bet my house there's a looooooong list of college athletes who have got away with this because "Johnnys so good at fill in the sport" And yes, there are also innocents that get accused. Though I'm not sure the one you're referring to is a good example of innocence...in general. Edited January 28 by flyercanuck 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 6 hours ago, flyerrod said: Due to the length of time from the original investigation. I am not saying the original investigation was done correctly but why did it take 4 or 5 years to correct it? I can think of 83 million reasons why false accusations can and are made. It took 4-5 years to correct it because those in charge had to be publicly embarrassed by leaks into taking the investigation seriously. Had that not happened, it never would have been done correctly. It would have been settled confidentially, with a payment of over $3M, in an effort to make the story go away. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 9 hours ago, hmc687 said: It is odd and disturbing how many posters here, presumably men, are already projecting Hart guilty of any and all charges. This only reinforces my point that when a man is charged w sexual assault it does severe damage regardless of trial outcome. And this has already ruined 1 professional career (that we know of) but I'm sure many more. Anyhow, I'll wait till the hearing plays out before making accusations. The only information available right now are just stories because nobody really knows anything yet. And reading grown men get emotional and angry about stories is a good laugh Laughing about stories of sexual assault is a reason it doesn’t get reported. Boys will be boys, eh? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said: It took 4-5 years to correct it because those in charge had to be publicly embarrassed by leaks into taking the investigation seriously. Had that not happened, it never would have been done correctly. It would have been settled confidentially, with a payment of over $3M, in an effort to make the story go away. Don’t know the background to the story but if they are guilty they should be punished. The problem is the false accusations that are straight up money grubbing individuals are as often as not the case. Amber Heard says hello….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmc687 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 10 hours ago, hmc687 said: It is odd and disturbing how many posters here, presumably men, are already projecting Hart guilty of any and all charges. This only reinforces my point that when a man is charged w sexual assault it does severe damage regardless of trial outcome. And this has already ruined 1 professional career (that we know of) but I'm sure many more. Anyhow, I'll wait till the hearing plays out before making accusations. The only information available right now are just stories because nobody really knows anything yet. And reading grown men get emotional and angry about stories is a good laugh 1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said: Laughing about stories of sexual assault is a reason it doesn’t get reported. Boys will be boys, eh? You're reading comprehension isnt adding up. Nothing in my post said anything about "boys will be boys". I never said I was laughing at stories, I said I was laughing at grown men getting so mad about these stories that they then project their anger toward a young man...who may or may not be guilty of anything at all. As an adult, I'm embarrassed for these "men". Here's some athletes whose professional careers were destroyed by false allegations: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-brian-banks-privilege-stanford-rape-case-brock-turner/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlynborysenko/2020/02/12/the-dark-side-of-metoo-what-happens-when-men-are-falsely-accused/ https://medium.com/false-allegations-wrongful-convictions/the-perils-of-falsely-reporting-allegations-of-sexual-assault-to-the-police-cc15f510a6be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 10 hours ago, hmc687 said: It is odd and disturbing how many posters here, presumably men, are already projecting Hart guilty of any and all charges. This only reinforces my point that when a man is charged w sexual assault it does severe damage regardless of trial outcome. And this has already ruined 1 professional career (that we know of) but I'm sure many more. Anyhow, I'll wait till the hearing plays out before making accusations. The only information available right now are just stories because nobody really knows anything yet. And reading grown men get emotional and angry about stories is a good laugh I tagged this "good post" because I agree with the general sentiment of it - if you're saying "cool it until we know who did what." Fair, reasonable, common sense. OTOH there is a lot we do know about what was plainly a coverup and it stinks to high heavens. 16 hours ago, radoran said: I deliberately haven't sought out details of this case because the entire thing repulses me. Me and you both. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 7 hours ago, flyerrod said: Due to the length of time from the original investigation. I am not saying the original investigation was done correctly but why did it take 4 or 5 years to correct it? I'm not sure how long the average rape case takes to investigate. My guess is that they're almost always shorter than this one, but this is also not your average investigation. For what it's worth, the RCMP, in a review of their cases from 2015 to 2017, found "consistent deficiencies in how they were handled". Over 300 of the investigations went from a status of requiring no further action to being re-opened, with about 3/4 of them resulting in charges being laid. It also turns out that the London Police Service has one of the highest rates of sexual assaults claims being labelled as "unfounded"; when investigators find no reason to further their investigation. The national average of local and provincial police services and the RCMP is 19%. In London, it's 34%. As part of an article looking into why cases can be labelled as unfounded, The Globe & Mail requested copies of case files, excluding any identifying information, from cases which were closed. Here is a screenshot of what the London Police Service (34% unfounded) and Windsor (3% unfounded) provided: The London Police redacted literally everything other than their letterhead, while the Windsor Police provided all of the requested information. Infer from that what you will, but I take a fairly dim view of the investigative process in London, Ontario. The Department of Justice and BC Ministries of Community and Public Safety conducted a joint study of sexual assault claims of cases covering a two year period, and found that many cases were scarcely investigated at all past the stage of conducting the initial interview with the claimant, and in many instances, they didn't even interview the suspect who had been named. In the case of a 13-year old girl who reported being raped and turned out to be pregnant, the police didn't even speak to man she accused or perform a DNA test on the baby. There's a very good reason that investigations often don't progress very far: the people conducting the study sat-in on police training courses, and it turned out the majority of the training was not about how to investigates sex crimes, but about how to spot false allegations. "You really have to be watching for body language. Is she too upset? Is she upset enough? Is she angry? Is she trying to get even with a boyfriend? Is she looking for attention?" The classes were taught by police officers and not experts with training in areas of trauma or victim behaviour, who all point out that these questions have no bearing on whether or not a person was victimized. There are a lot of very valid reasons that the London Police Service took years to get to this point, and it says a lot more about poor police training and investigation than it does about making me suspicious of the woman. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmc687 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 24 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said: I tagged this "good post" because I agree with the general sentiment of it - if you're saying "cool it until we know who did what." Fair, reasonable, common sense. OTOH there is a lot we do know about what was plainly a coverup and it stinks to high heavens. Me and you both. Simple rape case. Police do not charge those involved and are cleared. Now there's a conspiracy in which police may have behaved criminally and covered things up. Again, this is all speculation. We'll let the court system play out and see what happens, but the language used by grown adult men on this forum to bury young men/kids for...allegations that were initially rejected. Saying these adult grown men are immature is a damn euphemism... Edited January 28 by hmc687 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerdog Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 18 hours ago, radoran said: "Not culpable" and "innocent" are two different things. A lot depends on what comes out and that will color public perception more than now. Full, actual, and real exoneration means he probably keeps a career. I deliberately haven't sought out details of this case because the entire thing repulses me. I hope the Canadian legal system works well, whatever the result. for sure, he might not have participated, but if he knew about the event(s) that makes him innocent but culpable, if he had no idea of the events and obviously did not participate, i would guess that would mean innocent and not culpable, but realistically, I would hope that anyone with any sort of morals or conscience would have quit the team immediately and reported to the police...this is the disheartening thing most of all..since he always projected as a calm, humble, rational person...i really hope that he did NOT have any sort involvement in any of this. but the fact that he took an indefinite leave does not bode well. I suspect that if he had no part in this he would have sat down with Danny B and given him full disclosure to assure him... 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mojo1917 Posted January 28 Popular Post Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, hmc687 said: but the language used by grown adult men on this forum to bury young men/kids for...allegations that were initially rejected. Saying these adult grown men are immature is a damn euphemism... A euphemism for what? I'm not following what you're saying here. Do you mean hyperbole? I haven't seen too many people softening their language about the actions. I softened my language, because I didn't want to use Carter Hart and rapist in the same sentence. Even if there is the word allegedly in front of it. It hurts my soul, to imagine the same person who chose his NHL number because a kid with disabilities bought a sweater with his his rookie camp number on it. Could also be car # 4 in the train on that young woman. We'll see what the charges are on the 5th and we'll see what the criminal court case decision is. All that frontal lobe information does not change the emotional response I had when I learned of this. This is a hideous situation; That seems to have been handled poorly from the jump. We will see if justice delayed is justice delivered I suppose. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 6 minutes ago, flyerdog said: I would hope that anyone with any sort of morals or conscience would have quit the team immediately and reported to the police.. Well said. AFAIK no one from that Juniors team has done either one - though like I said I haven't followed the story at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmc687 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 4 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: A euphemism for what? I'm not following what you're saying here. Do you mean hyperbole? I haven't seen too many people softening their language about the actions. I softened my language, because I didn't want to use Carter Hart and rapist in the same sentence. Even if there is the word allegedly in front of it. It hurts my soul, to imagine the same person who chose his NHL number because a kid with disabilities bought a sweater with his his rookie camp number on it. Could also be car # 4 in the train on that young woman. We'll see what the charges are on the 5th and we'll see what the criminal court case decision is. All that frontal lobe information does not change the emotional response I had when I learned of this. This is a hideous situation; That seems to have been handled poorly from the jump. We will see if justice delayed is justice delivered I suppose. A euphemism is used to put a positive spin on an otherwise negative word. It may be euphemstic to call someone immature than a fool, for example As far as justice delayed is justice delivered...completely agree. Edited January 28 by hmc687 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 @hmc687 If you couldnt tell from my post, I know what a euphemism is. But thanks- I want to understand what calling adult grown men immature is a euphemism for... Euphamism for what? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerdog Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 from the Sporting News: 1/24/24 "Victor Mete and Jordan Kyrou confirmed that they did not attend the gala and were not in London at the time of the incident. The following players have come out either via personal statement or with their agency to say that they were not involved with the allegations: Jake Bean, Kale Clague, Max Comtois, Dillon Dube, Dante Fabbro, Cal Foote, Jonah Gadjovich, Carter Hart, Brett Howden, Cale Makar, Colton Point, Taylor Raddysh, Sam Steel, Tyler Steenbergen, Robert Thomas and Conor Timmins." yikes!! Cale Makar? That's 17 players saying that they were not involved...somebody be lying, me thinks..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, flyerdog said: .since he always projected as a calm, humble, rational person I really didn't see this coming from Carter Hart. Always thought he was exactly what you said. Hopefully he's found to be just that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Bell Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, flyerrod said: Don’t know the background to the story but if they are guilty they should be punished. The problem is the false accusations that are straight up money grubbing individuals are as often as not the case. Amber Heard says hello….. Think about what you just wrote. You claim many sexual assault accusations are false, and are done so for money. Do you realize that, statistically, over 90% of all rapes go unreported? And of those 10% that are reported, less than 5% are straight-out false accusations and/or recanted for other reasons. So factually there are only a minuscule number of accusations that are false. Comments like yours and others on here is exactly why most women do not report being sexually assaulted; because they are rarely believed, especially when the accused is an athlete or famous or both. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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