Is Torts the right guy?

[icehole]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Is he, though?

Maybe "great" is too much. But I think his coaching has been better than the result. I think if he had the right mix of players, things would be different.  Instead, it seems like he has some babies playing for him. Babies that become captain, play like garbage, get benched, and then complain about how they are treated.

 

But that's the point of my thread. Maybe it's too much to ask to get the right mix of players that will buy into his coaching style. Maybe that style worked in 2004 but not in 2024. There's already a star that wouldn't play here, and Michkov doesn't seem like a kid that will take hard criticism too well. I could be wrong.

[CoachX]

34 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Only Flyers fans can be deluded into thinking Crosby wouldn't have succeeded against them the last 20 years if we just hit him some more.

Instead of being mad at Crosby, you should be mad at the Flyers for icing such crappy teams since Crosby has been in the league.  It's no coincidence he has scored more points against the Flyers than any other team.

If he were on the Flyers, you would love every minute of it, just like fans loved Clarke.

comprehending things is difficult for you....like hyperbole for example

[radoran]

35 minutes ago, icehole said:

But that's the point of my thread. Maybe it's too much to ask to get the right mix of players that will buy into his coaching style.

 

I don't think it's "the players" or "the coach" - I don't think he's a good enough coach to take a team with "good to great" talent to the next level. And the Flyers are no where near "good to great."

 

He had two legit Hall of Fame scorers (VLC/MSL) and a probable HOFer in net in Khabibulin when he won in Tampa. I gave you his results since.

 

He will not, at this rate, have similar talent in Philadelphia.

 

His coaching style asks too much for too long from too many players. It leaves them drained before the playoffs even start. This isn't the first time this has happened. It's a good reason why he has been out of the first round once in the past 10+ years and no further.

 

This isn't "a surprise" and I'm not "piling on" after they flamed out. It's been said about him by me and many others.

 

If you want your middling bubble playoff team to be the best middling bubble playoff team out there, he's your guy. I don't believe he - or virtually anyone else for that matter - could win four seven game series against superior talent with hard work, grit, and determination.

 

[JR Ewing]

@radoran Right. He's not a bad coach at all, and I don't think he abuses his staff like some coaches, but his style wears on the players and the message gets old after about three seasons.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, JR Ewing said:

his style wears on the players and the message gets old after about three seasons.

 

To your point, I've got to imagine a lot of guys who gave a lot this year to get where they were aren't going to have the same depth of drive all of next season that they did this year. Much like a "Cup hangover" without the Cup.

 

You can get guys "Miracle on Icing" which is great, but also one game. The Brooksian other side of that is "they might win nine".

 

Talent wins Stanley Cups. It always has. It always will.

 

Four seven playoff game rounds is a massive mountain to climb and arguably the most difficult tournament in professional sport.

 

There is no way to shortcut this reality.

 

You don't have to build "a good team" - you have to build a team that will beat four other teams' good team in four seven game playoff rounds.

 

Anyone who thinks the Flyers are anywhere near this possibility should contact my realtor about this nice bridge on lower Manhattan that heads out to one of the boroughs... Beautiful views of the harbor.

 

[JR Ewing]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

Four seven playoff game rounds is a massive mountain to climb and arguably the most difficult tournament in professional sport.

 

There is no way to shortcut this reality.

 

You don't have to build "a good team" - you have to build a team that will beat four other teams' good team in four seven game playoff rounds.

 

100%

 

This sentiment of "Oh, but he never won a Cup" seems to be widespread among the media, players and fans.

 

At some point we may have to realize that the attitude of Stanley Cup or bust is not reasonable in an era with a salary cap, 32 teams, especially when randomness, goaltending (which is another species of randomness), and overtimes plays such a big role in who ultimately wins. And now, above all of that, we have a new model, which grants the best chance to win the Cup to the team whose General Manager is able to use LTIR to over-load his team with more impact players and still be cap-compliant during the regular season. This was raised to comic levels by Tampa Bay and Vegas, who had Kucherov and Stone practicing for a month before the playoffs, before finally being ready to go immediately after the end of the regular season.

 

A million things have to go right in order to win the Cup and anybody with an approach of "Hey; if we get in we have a chance" is deluding themselves.

 

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

Anyone who thinks the Flyers are anywhere near this possibility should contact my realtor about this nice bridge on lower Manhattan that heads out to one of the boroughs... Beautiful views of the harbor.

 

 

They're plucky and have a strong Give a Sh|t/60 but, no, they're not remotely ready.

 

[icehole]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I don't think it's "the players" or "the coach" - I don't think he's a good enough coach to take a team with "good to great" talent to the next level. And the Flyers are no where near "good to great."

 

He had two legit Hall of Fame scorers (VLC/MSL) and a probable HOFer in net in Khabibulin when he won in Tampa. I gave you his results since.

 

He will not, at this rate, have similar talent in Philadelphia.

 

His coaching style asks too much for too long from too many players. It leaves them drained before the playoffs even start. This isn't the first time this has happened. It's a good reason why he has been out of the first round once in the past 10+ years and no further.

 

This isn't "a surprise" and I'm not "piling on" after they flamed out. It's been said about him by me and many others.

 

If you want your middling bubble playoff team to be the best middling bubble playoff team out there, he's your guy. I don't believe he - or virtually anyone else for that matter - could win four seven game series against superior talent with hard work, grit, and determination.

 

I'm starting to lean towards him not being the guy. I think that if he had that core of players that were stars and have been in the league 10 years, maybe he can be that guy. But he won't last that long to find out.

 

It's a shame though. He's my favorite coach since Lavi, and probably my second favorite flyers coach of all time behind Lavi. Flyers have had some unlikeable coaches. Speaking of Lavi, I don't know if he can make it to the end either. He has a good start on teams but flames out quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers flame out early this year.

[JR Ewing]

24 minutes ago, icehole said:

I'm starting to lean towards him not being the guy. I think that if he had that core of players that were stars and have been in the league 10 years, maybe he can be that guy. But he won't last that long to find out.

 

It's a shame though. He's my favorite coach since Lavi, and probably my second favorite flyers coach of all time behind Lavi. Flyers have had some unlikeable coaches. Speaking of Lavi, I don't know if he can make it to the end either. He has a good start on teams but flames out quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers flame out early this year.

 

He's in Philly for the rebuild, and was brought in for "accountability" and "culture change". If a winner is be made from this project (and getting a superstar is unlikely with the course they're taking) he won't be the coach by the time it happens.

 

[Poulin20]

2 hours ago, icehole said:

I'm starting to lean towards him not being the guy. I think that if he had that core of players that were stars and have been in the league 10 years, maybe he can be that guy. But he won't last that long to find out.

 

It's a shame though. He's my favorite coach since Lavi, and probably my second favorite flyers coach of all time behind Lavi. Flyers have had some unlikeable coaches. Speaking of Lavi, I don't know if he can make it to the end either. He has a good start on teams but flames out quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers flame out early this year.

I loved him too and Lavi even said that he has a shelf life the day he got hired by the Flyers.  Keenan was my all time fav but he was another one who wore out the players.  That was likely hastened by the emotional turmoil caused by the death of Pelle.  Even Iron Mike was moved to tears.  “We lost Gump” was his famous line to his surviving players in the hospital as he cried.

[jammer2]

Apparently, Torts wanted to move into the upper management in Columbus and their GM wanted no part of it. Pure conjecture, but I believe he was hired with the promise a cushy Bob Clarke advisor role in the near future. 

 

 That future may come quicker than anticipated. It kinda looks like the team has quit on him....or maybe they are just crap...or maybe a combination. 

 

 Some more pure conjecture, have not read this anywhere...my own thoughts...but benching Coots, who is a very popular Captain and teammate may have pissed off players who are loyal to Coots and we are seeing the backlash in actual games....just a theory. 

[Mad Dog]

1 hour ago, jammer2 said:

Some more pure conjecture, have not read this anywhere...my own thoughts...but benching Coots, who is a very popular Captain and teammate may have pissed off players who are loyal to Coots and we are seeing the backlash in actual games....just a theory.

 Very possible.  And Coots didn't take it lightly and spoke up, saying something like he didn't appreciate how he was treated.

 

I just feel like there is no cohesion on the ice anymore, and one has to wonder if it translated to the locker room, as well.... or vise versa. The team just looked totally transformed in a very negative way from even 3 weeks ago. Clearly, something has occurred. We may hear more during exit interviews, I hope.

[ruxpin]

10 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

 Very possible.  And Coots didn't take it lightly and spoke up, saying something like he didn't appreciate how he was treated.

 

I just feel like there is no cohesion on the ice anymore, and one has to wonder if it translated to the locker room, as well.... or vise versa. The team just looked totally transformed in a very negative way from even 3 weeks ago. Clearly, something has occurred. We may hear more during exit interviews, I hope.

 

Well, if they stay to script, they keep Torts until November or early December next year so they have an excuse as to why next season is completely screwed up too, because "we have the talent that we should be winning so it's aluminum imports or interest rates or space lasers or something."

 

It can't be that they have  built a talentless team.

[mojo1917]

10 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

I just feel like there is no cohesion on the ice anymore, and one has to wonder if it translated to the locker room, as well.... or vise versa. The team just looked totally transformed in a very negative way from even 3 weeks ago. Clearly, something has occurred. We may hear more during exit interviews, I hope.

 

They looked like they had never played together vs MTL. That was a fiasco.

 

I wonder if getting .785 goaltending has anything to do with why they're so bad?

I'll bet that is big reason.

 

I need to see this team compete during these last 3 games for the "building culture" idea to land....all 3 remaining teams are better,

If they lose these games 5-3 with an empty netter but are competitive that's one thing;  that will stink but at least it shows the team has some fight remaining.

Getting dragged behind the woodshed? I think will present even more questions about just what the hell is happening. 

[flyercanuck]

44 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Getting dragged behind the woodshed? I think will present even more questions about just what the hell is happening. 

 

It SHOULD mean that they'd do an honest to goodness rebuild. But it won't.

[OccamsRazor]

Depends is all this only on the players????

 

 

Or does Torts just get off scott free??

[Mad Dog]

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

They looked like they had never played together vs MTL. That was a fiasco.

 Agreed.  That Montreal game was just a disaster, no matter from what angle you look at it. The team was unrecognizable.  It's almost like they didn't want to have anything to do with even being on the ice in that game.

[icehole]

15 hours ago, jammer2 said:

Apparently, Torts wanted to move into the upper management in Columbus and their GM wanted no part of it. Pure conjecture, but I believe he was hired with the promise a cushy Bob Clarke advisor role in the near future. 

 

 That future may come quicker than anticipated. It kinda looks like the team has quit on him....or maybe they are just crap...or maybe a combination. 

 

 Some more pure conjecture, have not read this anywhere...my own thoughts...but benching Coots, who is a very popular Captain and teammate may have pissed off players who are loyal to Coots and we are seeing the backlash in actual games....just a theory. 

I just saw an article from the Athletic on this. I don't know what everyone does up in that office, but I'm not opposed to this. As I said, I'm leaning toward Torts not being the right coach, but I still like him and think he has a good hockey mind.

 

I can't see them firing him at this point, but if they could move him upstairs and bring in a younger, new age, older brother type coach, I think that could happen.

[radoran]

50 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

 Agreed.  That Montreal game was just a disaster, no matter from what angle you look at it. The team was unrecognizable.  It's almost like they didn't want to have anything to do with even being on the ice in that game.

 

Which is, well, at the very least, weird given that it was a "must win" game for the playoff push from the much ballyhooed "new culture" of the locker room.

 

And they basically quit on each other and the coach.

 

We've seen Flyer legends canned for such things.

 

I really hope that they see this sign for what it is and not an "unfortunate problem that happened due to injuries and the eclipse".

[flyercanuck]

19 minutes ago, icehole said:

I can't see them firing him at this point, but if they could move him upstairs

 

They really need to get away from promoting guys who would be fired by other organizations. 

 

Tortorella is an ok coach. But he loves washed up vets and seems to dislike offensively gifted players. Is that who you want helping to build the future Flyers...cause if it is, be prepared for another decade of futility.

[FD19372]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Depends is all this only on the players????

 

 

Or does Torts just get off scott free??

He doesn't get off scott free, but he isn't the problem. At least he isn't a top three problem, for sure. Their scouting, talent evaluation, AND their prior GM..and what the hell, I'll throw in their ownership (Comcast and maybe slightly Hilferty), Alumni and maybe even Gritty.. are the problem. He's doing a pretty good job with what he has, and I knew he wasn't going to be the best coach for a young hockey team. He has exceeded my expectations with this bunch somewhat, honestly.

[Howie58]

Is Torts the right guy?  My take:

 

Talent is the problem, coaching isn't.  The last 20+ years should convince us that's the case.  Could someone be marginally better?  Maybe.  Then we have to weigh the benefits versus the cost of change and evaluation with a new system.  

 

I agree with Mike Sielski (not a friend of Torts) that the collapse over the last few weeks is likely to extend the "rebuild."  The microscope on the likes of Frost, Farabee, Sanheim, Ersson, Drysdale, and whomever will be more intense, likely leading to their separation.  Long-term, that may be good.  But the turnover will be costly next season.  BTW, a less costly interim move might be to kick Torts upstairs in some management capacity and let Shaw become the new coach.  

 

Again, I think another coaching change will do little positive at the margin.  Torts is already half way through the contract, and rumor has it eating another 8 million is not high on the minds of Comcast.  

 

 

[mojo1917]

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

It SHOULD mean that they'd do an honest to goodness rebuild. But it won't.

We have to see what happens first.

Could be guys are getting bought-out and "promoted" 

I cannot imagine the FO is watching this and thinking, "yep  going exactly as we planned, sign all the free agents!"

 

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, FD19372 said:

He has exceeded my expectations with this bunch somewhat, honestly.

 

I personally expected utter crap and said so.  

It's what we have.    

yeah, they collapsed at the end, but the truth is he got more out of them than what they were.   But he also wore out a barely average group playing well-above their heads and working harder as a club than I've seen in Philly since Richards and Carter were at a downtown Philly bar.

 

I wasn't in favor of Torts being hired.  He's not really the current problem, but he's not the solution, either.  The problem with him surviving the summer is exactly what I said earlier and wasn't kidding:  they're only going to fire him in November or December and crap the rest of next season as a result.

 

Start the real damn rebuild and bring in a rebuild coach.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

the collapse over the last few weeks is likely to extend the "rebuild." 

 

You know whats going to extend the rebuild? 

 

NOT rebuilding.

[mojo1917]

@ruxpin

Wouldn't it be funny if they promoted Rocky Thompson to HC after kicking Tortorella upstairs.

He does have a good track record of developing young players. 

 

It would be funny because the powerplay was so bad this year and everyone says it's all his fault. 

 

 

 

 

at least I think that would be funny.

 

 

I'll see myself out.

*kicks rocks* sigh.