Flyers 2023-24: A Post-Season Appraisal

[OccamsRazor]

Let's pray for some luck...sure would love to win that #2...

 

 

[JR Ewing]

@BobbyClarkeFan16 I really like your post, and it did make me curious. I went and combed through highlights of power-plays from the last 15ish games, and I have to say that I'm not so sure it's about how bad Rocky Thompson is as a coach. I saw a bog-standard 1-3-1 from the Flyers PP, so it's not like he has them doing something very different than what it is the most commonly-used system.

 

What I did see:

-Owen Tippett wasting shot after shot, no matter if there were defender blocking the lanes, and whether or not there was a net-front to bang in a rebound on the off-chance the shot actually gets through. Honestly, I think that the PP doesn't lend itself nearly as well to his skillset as does even-strength, where he generates chances with his speed through the neutral zone.

-Morgan Frost getting out-muscled and out-reached in board battles.

-Bobby Brink getting out-muscled and out-reached in board battles.

-Jamie Drysdale. Another guy under 6 feet tall and 185 lbs.

-Sean Couturier, who has the size but not the feet.

 

This is a mostly short and underweight group who wouldn't be getting 1st unit PP minutes on good teams. Size without skill is a total waste, but skill without size places limitations on matchups and roster building. Small players can be effective, but small teams (or in this case, special teams groups) are too easy to neutralize.

 

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

32 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

I guess I have a very different view from many (everybody else?) around here. I don't see the need to trade Konecny, and I think that people who are hoping for a strong young scorer or a potential starting goaltender would be very underwhelmed by the return. As ever, I go back to Al Arbour (who forgot more about hockey than I'll ever know), with his opinion on team building: "It's no secret; it's not complicated. Get good players."

 

Travis Konecny is a good player, and if the rebuild is in a good position in five years, he will only be 32. Serious injuries aside, he can be more than useful at that age, and despite what a lot of people think a rebuild constitutes, I don't think it's a good idea to shed literally every good player from the roster, as respected veterans have value.

 

This is just my view as a fan of a team that was forced to trade primed-aged players in favour of prospects and picks. It mostly doesn't work out and it just keeps the rebuild going perpetually.

 

 

For me, it depends on how long the contract is. If it's a 7 or 8 year deal, I'm skeptical because then we're looking at 35 - 36. In most cases, forwards are usually done by that time. They simply don't have the wheels anymore or the hands aren't what they used to be. Now, you might be able to dump the contract off to a team that needs to hit the salary floor, but then you're giving up a huge asset to make that move.

 

If the contract is a 5 to 6 year deal, that's a little more palatable. You've got someone who will be 34 - 35 by the time the contract finishes and maybe you can get them to sign a team discount deal for another two years if they have something left in the tank. Part of the problem with Konecny is his style of play leads to injuries and time on the injured list. The thing is, I don't know if you can tone him down. 

 

Do I think you move him? Hmm, I'm not sure. You could make a case for both moving him and keeping him.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 minute ago, JR Ewing said:

@BobbyClarkeFan16 I really like your post, and it did make me curious. I went and combed through highlights of power-plays from the last 15ish games, and I have to say that I'm not so sure it's about how bad Rocky Thompson is as a coach. I saw a bog-standard 1-3-1 from the Flyers PP, so it's not like he has them doing something very different than what it is the most commonly-used system.

 

What I did see:

-Owen Tippett wasting shot after shot, no matter if there were defender blocking the lanes, and whether or not there was a net-front to bang in a rebound on the off-chance the shot actually gets through. Honestly, I think that the PP doesn't lend itself nearly as well to his skillset as does even-strength, where he generates chances with his speed through the neutral zone.

-Morgan Frost getting out-muscled and out-reached in board battles.

-Bobby Brink getting out-muscled and out-reached in board battles.

-Jamie Drysdale. Another guy under 6 feet tall and 185 lbs.

-Sean Couturier, who has the size but not the feet.

 

This is a mostly short and underweight group who wouldn't be getting 1st unit PP minutes on good teams. Size without skill is a total waste, but skill without size places limitations on matchups and roster building. Small players can be effective, but small teams (or in this case, special teams groups) are too easy to neutralize.

 

 

 

I think the power play issues are fixable. For instance, I'd probably put Farabee, Foerster, Tippett, Frost and Drysdale on the first unit. I'd have Farabee on his off-wing, Foerster on his offwing, Tippett in the slot, Frost near the blue line and Drysdale at the top. I'm not sure I'd use the standard 1-3-1 that's being used. I'd also probably go back to the Joe Mullen days of when he was the power play coach and see how to utilize the guys. I look at a guy like Farabee and I'm astounded that one of the NHL's best 5 on 5 scorers can't get things going on the power play. That's a warning sign to me that something is off. I'd also probably use Frost for the defensive zone entries and then use the size guys like Foerster and Tippett to bully their way through the opposition to clear lanes and then set up everything.

 

I don't know. I just see that there is some viable talent there and they're used in the wrong places. I think it's something that's fixable, but I'm also wondering if Tortorella wants guys to be used that he likes, not what's necessarily best for the team. I'm really at a loss as to why things are the way they are. No matter how hard this club tries, they just continually go back to the well of things that don't work. I guess maybe having a true offensive guy on the coaching staff might be the key to unlocking things.

 

I'd be interested to see what the power plays were like for Thompson in junior and the AHL and who his power play coach was. That might be the key to unlocking what's broken with the Flyers power play.

[OccamsRazor]

36 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

For me, it depends on how long the contract is. If it's a 7 or 8 year deal, I'm skeptical because then we're looking at 35 - 36. In most cases, forwards are usually done by that time. They simply don't have the wheels anymore or the hands aren't what they used to be. Now, you might be able to dump the contract off to a team that needs to hit the salary floor, but then you're giving up a huge asset to make that move.

 

If the contract is a 5 to 6 year deal, that's a little more palatable. You've got someone who will be 34 - 35 by the time the contract finishes and maybe you can get them to sign a team discount deal for another two years if they have something left in the tank. Part of the problem with Konecny is his style of play leads to injuries and time on the injured list. The thing is, I don't know if you can tone him down. 

 

Do I think you move him? Hmm, I'm not sure. You could make a case for both moving him and keeping him.

 

Torts told you not to fall in love with these players.

 

Flyers don't HAVE to move him but it would be best served to move him if they can get good value for him for assets back.

 

But if they keep him and give him the 8 year deal i am not going to riot he is my favorite Flyer.

 

But i was willing to sacrifice him for the rebuild i am not saying waste him. Someone has to to go on the wing i think.

 

I was willing to move Tippett at the deadline. I just hope they don't regret that. 

[JR Ewing]

9 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

I think the power play issues are fixable. For instance, I'd probably put Farabee, Foerster, Tippett, Frost and Drysdale on the first unit. I'd have Farabee on his off-wing, Foerster on his offwing, Tippett in the slot, Frost near the blue line and Drysdale at the top. I'm not sure I'd use the standard 1-3-1 that's being used. I'd also probably go back to the Joe Mullen days of when he was the power play coach and see how to utilize the guys. I look at a guy like Farabee and I'm astounded that one of the NHL's best 5 on 5 scorers can't get things going on the power play. That's a warning sign to me that something is off. I'd also probably use Frost for the defensive zone entries and then use the size guys like Foerster and Tippett to bully their way through the opposition to clear lanes and then set up everything.

 

-Tippett: I like Tippett as a shooter in the slot, but the problem with that is that the bumper position needs a guy who can facilitate for his teammates as well as shoot, and he's very ill-suited for that. He gets a puck, he shoots a puck. Braydon Point is a terrific bumper because he can shoot and pass.

 

-Mullen PP: what; an over-load, with two defensemen/shooters at the point? That system is as dead as disco, and for good reason. As teams abandoned it one by one, in favour of the 1-3-1, team PP% kept increasing across the NHL. You could put Al MacInnis there, and that PP wouldn't produce enough today. The only reason to shoot from the point is to keep the defenders honest; not to generate chances.

 

9 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I don't know. I just see that there is some viable talent there and they're used in the wrong places. I think it's something that's fixable, but I'm also wondering if Tortorella wants guys to be used that he likes, not what's necessarily best for the team. I'm really at a loss as to why things are the way they are. No matter how hard this club tries, they just continually go back to the well of things that don't work. I guess maybe having a true offensive guy on the coaching staff might be the key to unlocking things.

 

I guess this is a spot where we disagree. I don't see viable/high end talent on that PP, and I think that's why it's so bad.

 

9 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I'd be interested to see what the power plays were like for Thompson in junior and the AHL and who his power play coach was. That might be the key to unlocking what's broken with the Flyers power play.

 

I was curious about the same thing.

 

[FD19372]

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

...I'd be happier if u was wrong but we'll see.

I or U? 

[SCFlyguy]

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

If Michkov is coming over early does that change the calculus for anyone?

No

[Howie58]

@BobbyClarkeFan16 has posted wisely. That said, personnel matter. Putting aside the PP, our historical record in the SO and PP since inception is league-worst. That stretch covers a long stretch and I believe a half dozen coaches. I think that reflects the DNA problem I mentioned earlier. We put physicality over skill in player choice, and I think we've paid dearly. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the dismiss or reassign Thompson.  Then we see if things get much better.

[CoachX]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Let's pray for some luck...sure would love to win that #2...

 

 

Because it’s paid off so well 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

My only hope is that the organization doesn't double down on "we were this close" and end up abandoning the rebuild and go with a quick fix. That worries me the most because this is a franchise that does not want to do a proper rebuild - they refuse to take their lumps that other teams had to take. 

Edited April 18 by BobbyClarkeFan16

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I think that reflects the DNA problem I mentioned earlier.

 

 

 

 

[Howie58]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

 

 

Strange.  

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

 

 

 

Just Torts Tortin'. 

[SCFlyguy]

9 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

 

 

Got him, Torts!

[flyercanuck]

This is how any team would treat their top defenceman, right? Right? 

First you want to bench him in his hometown in front of his family, then lie and say you didn't know that's where he was from. Then do this.

 

Great coaching tactics. 

[Fuzz]

13 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

My only hope is that the organization doesn't double down on "we were this close" and end up abandoning the rebuild and go with a quick fix. That worries me the most because this is a franchise that does not want to do a proper rebuild - they refuse to take their lumps that other teams had to take. 

You're very accurate.  The big question is why is this franchise so reluctant to do a proper rebuild?  Is it because they won't be able to sell as many tickets or any many new jerseys?  And who makes the decision on do a proper & true rebuild?  Is it determined by people like Briere or by NBC/Comcast?  I'd like to know.

[Howie58]

I just want to emphasize something in my original post.  Yes, we have made progress.  But that's benchmarked to the post-Bubble funk that took out AV/Yeo and gave the second-worst season in in history.  We have a long way to go before we are top-10.  One observation I'd make is that the fans apparently gave the team an ovation after Game 82.  The fanbase appreciates the effort we got most games.  That's important.  I recall the fear some had that Comcast and brass couldn't tolerate a long rebuild--lost revenue, lost fanbase, etc.   My gut says Briere, Hilferty, and Jones see a fanbase that will play the long game as long as there's effort and incremental improvement.  

 

By the way, I posted eons ago about the fact that former Sharks GM Doug McClean was adamant about not signing contracts over five years.  I am surprised that the NHLPA fleeced the owners (or vice versa) in allowing eight year contracts in a sport with this degree of physical contact.  I am like McClean--I wouldn't do more than five years.  By the way, part of his rationale was that top free agents did not want to come to a team with aging, non-competitive, overpaid superstars.  This is a collective bargaining issue worth revisiting.  

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

I am like McClean--I wouldn't do more than five years.

 

No one forces them to offer eight year deals. No one forced Homer to offer 12- and 10-year deals to Richards and Crater.

 

It's stupid GMs that make these stupid deals.

 

5 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

This is a collective bargaining issue worth revisiting.  

 

The players "gave" to get the length limited to eight years (again, look at the massive long term deals that were handed out before that).

 

What's their incentive to help the owners pay them less, again?

 

7 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

By the way, part of his rationale was that top free agents did not want to come to a team with aging, non-competitive, overpaid superstars. 

 

It's the top free agents that demand the eight year deals. They want to be aging, non-competitive, overpaid superstars...

 

[flyercanuck]

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

They want to be aging, non-competitive, overpaid superstars...playing for the Flyers

 

FIFY

[radoran]

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

FIFY

 

Nah, they're happy being on LTIR in Arizona. Or Utah. Or wherever...

[SCFlyguy]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

Yes, we have made progress. 

Citation needed.

 

I don't see anything different from the last several years, other than fewer players I hate.  That doesn't mean more players that are actually good.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

I don't see anything different from the last several years, other than fewer players I hate. 

 

LMFAO! Well said...I gotta admit,  almost everyone I couldn't stand from Fletchers Failures is gone. There's still a few to go, but presently, even though they aren't very talented, at least the team isn't build around players that only an idiot would build around.

 

Have I mentioned I think Fletcher was an idiot? I may have touched on it.

[icehole]

I don't know how to appraise this team. I think they played better than we thought, but there's a reason we thought they'd be worse...they're not that good. They got where they got to because of the coach and his structure, and they should've made the playoffs. But I think the ceiling for a good coach with average players is a playoff bubble team to a first round exit. They just need better players.

 

As for the organization moving forward as a whole, was this season a step in the right direction? I don't think so.  Before the season started, we had Hart in goal with Errson as a promising backup. We had Couturier and Atkison coming off injury and thought they could make the team better. We had Walker but didn't know he would do anything. We hoped Farabee and Frost would take that next step.

 

We ended up with Hart being detained and may never play in the NHL again. Errson was OK but showed his weaknesses. Fedotov came over (didn't expect that) and seemed like he didn't know how to play the position. Couturier and Atkison look like they are cooked. Walker played really well then got traded for a first round pick. Farabee wasn't very good but I thought Frost improved a little. Oh, and I almost forgot, the first key piece of the "future", the one we were all watching closely, the one who is probably the number one or two prospect in the NHL refuses to play for the team, and is traded before ever playing a game for us.

 

Some positives are

TK is a star (not a superstar or elite)

Tippet can dazzle

Cam York improved

Seeler was better than expected.

Poeling was better than expected.

Drysdale looks like he can play although he looked lost sometimes and got injured.

 

So overall, I don't think it was a good step in the right direction. I think they should be willing to sell just about anyone, and try to get assets for the draft. The rebuild started this season, but they didn't get too far.

 

[mojo1917]

@icehole

I don't agree with everything you wrote there but the overall message is spot on, they need better players.