Homer: Bad GM or Worst GM Ever? Discuss:

[murraycraven]

I see you Hextall:

 

 

[doom88]

I am sure not the worst. But he was BAD. Really bad.

This is how I look at it. Since he became a GM, has he assembled a team who was in a position to challenge for the Cup? The answer has ot be no. Both the Stevens' team and Laviollete's team got lucky several times and went far in the playoffs. Pure luck and nothing else.

The reality is, he was so bad that the consequences of his beyond stupid signings and beyond poor cap management will be felt long after he is gone.

Good riddance!

Um, luck or not, they DID challenge for the Cup.

It is largely about luck anyway, a fortunate bounce, a blown call, healthy roster, a goal scorer missing high and wide etc.

[Mad Dog]

Um, luck or not, they DID challenge for the Cup.

It is largely about luck anyway, a fortunate bounce, a blown call, healthy roster, a goal scorer missing high and wide etc.

 

By making it all the way to the Finals, they did challange for the Cup.  Yes, sure... Point well taken, Doom. 

 

Where I disagree with you is that it's not largely luck.  When the Kings, Boston, Chicago, and Kings again won it, it was a logical conclusion of the season as each of those teams deservedly won.  When the Detroit of the 2000's won several Cups - it was not luck either.  And the truth is, luck can carry you only so far.  You can win a game, two games... heck... a series.  But to win 16 games takes more than luck.  When you llok at how each of those teams won the Cup, once can realize that it ws done through good drafting, adding necessary components through trades, signing the right free agents, and a wise management of the cap.  That's the formula for sucess in a capped professional sport league. 

 

I don't know yet if Hextall is much better than what we had.  It stands to reason he has to be because it's hard not to be....  But one thing is certain: it will take a long time for Hextall to right the aftermath of the myriad of the ill-advised decisions, unfortunately.

[jammer2]

@Mad Dog  Well, to put things in the proper context, that whole playoff season was a bit of luck...if Giroux does not score that shoot-out goal, the whole damn thing woulda never happened.

[DaGreatGazoo]

I actually was never a huge fan of Bob's but even I saw his potential.

 

The real problem with that trade wasn't trading away Bobrovsky as I see it.  It was being forced to do it because you'd let the cap situation get so bad that you couldn't afford to keep him in the system for another year... and even worse was the fact that Homer got himself INTO that situation by letting Laviolette play Bob in the playoffs like a dummy when it would have been apparent to anyone watching that the goal tending situation was not losing (or saving) that series. 

 

IDIOTIC.

 

If Homer says, "No Lavs, you can't friggin play bob again this year damn it!" then we never have to trade him and can give him 40 games in the AHL or better yet, use him in tandem with a goalie not named Bryzgalov and let him develop.

 

In the end, I'm pleased with Mason and I do think getting unseated by Bob did wake Mason up and help him become the goalie he is (or rather is again) now.

 

Homer just screwed that pooch so royally it's pathetic.

No. The worst part of the entire situation was playing Bob ONE TOO MANY GAMES. Thereby making him ineligible for waivers the following year-and not being able to send him down to the phantoms. Of everything, that's inexcusable. It's a rule. It's in writing. Not knowing it is incompetence.

If Bob can play that year in the AHL, he might net a better return if traded. Or even....when the cosmonaut went bezerk, they coulda kept Bob.

By FUBAR-ing the waiver rule, the had no choice. They had to trade Bob. Once that happened, I lost any remaining faith in the Flyers front office.

[Bertmega]

Holmgren was excellent at assessing talent and made some great trades; however, his inability to manage the cap and commitment to disastrous contracts; I.e., Lupul, Hartnell, Bryzaster, VLC cannot be overlooked. He did make a commitment to the youth of the team which his predecessor could never do.

It's tough to compare Holmgren to Clarke because they both had their good points and flaws. Another thing is Clarke really only had two full years of cap management and look at that crap he assembled in the year he stepped down. Lest we not forget 2006-07. Holmgren did right the ship fast, but sorely needed a Howie Roseman bean counter to bird dog Ed's check book.

In the end, Holmgren was not a terrible gm, just really bad at math.

[Howie58]

I agree with Narducci or whomever in the Inquirer. On a day when other teams were signing "real" additions, we add EmZepp. It is a bit tough to understand. But the numbers must have Hextall hemmed in worse than any dosage of Prep H can handle...Intravenous, Enola Gay, whatever.  

 

Best,

 

Howie

[RonJeremy]

To me Homers biggest problem was ignoring the defense. Even before Pronger got hurt, he had a lot of mileage on him , he played a physical style and lots of minutes and was already old . How long did we think he ws gonna be a factor.and Timmo was aging and wearing down.Homer obviously knew this and other than Bourdon we had no real prospects on defense. He waited way too long to start drafting defenseman. It takes them much longer to develop and actually be a factor. Didn't he see the writing on the wall?

Did Gomer think we were going to keep signing FA defensemen and trading for defense forever? He had a chance to pick Hamilton and Maata two years in a row, yet both years he chose a third line defensive minded checking centers. Coots and Laugton are not bad picks,but they are not what we needed. We needed defense much more than another center. Just having one of those defenseman right now would have been a big help He finally caught on, and we have some great prospects for the future, but this season we are stuck with an aging,slow and grossly overpriced defense.

[King Knut]

Yeah. That's what I meant. The one too many was in the playoffs against the sabres in a series where goal scoring was the problem not goaltending.

No. The worst part of the entire situation was playing Bob ONE TOO MANY GAMES. Thereby making him ineligible for waivers the following year-and not being able to send him down to the phantoms. Of everything, that's inexcusable. It's a rule. It's in writing. Not knowing it is incompetence.

If Bob can play that year in the AHL, he might net a better return if traded. Or even....when the cosmonaut went bezerk, they coulda kept Bob.

By FUBAR-ing the waiver rule, the had no choice. They had to trade Bob. Once that happened, I lost any remaining faith in the Flyers front office.

[aziz]

Homer: Bad GM or Worst GM Ever?

 

might want to take a look at burke.  because:  wow.  

[Polaris922]

Not the worst ever, but he's down there close by. His inability to manage the cap (ask Hextall), numerous ridiculous contracts (length, overpaying, age), what I see as hit and miss drafting... And I reiterate what I think may be the biggest mistake he made... Trading Carter and Richards. You guys praise it as great returns, breaking up the frat party, etc etc... I view it as taking a team that was super close to the Cup and destroying it. Should've given it another run with some tweaks to see if they could do it again and win this time. It's the closest you e been since the 70's. I will never understand why he dismantled when he did.

[OccamsRazor]

Should've given it another run with some tweaks to see if they could do it again and win this time.

 

Like a REAL goaltender for once would have been nice.

[caluso]

The crazy thing is that I'm sure most fans identified those moves as bad the moment they happened. 

i agree with a lot of what you said with the exception of the Macdonald signing; i actually like him and think he got market value.

[Vanflyer]

From Rux's post in the shoutbox......

 

Sorry, hands down Russ Farwell (with Jay Snider as his underling, um president). Second would be Bob McCammon, but not enough sampling compared to the aforementioned. Third would have to be Bob Clarke (18 years at GM and one cup run, sorry- not good enough). 

 

Homer while an extension of Clarke, was better than the two aforementioned. 

[brelic]

i agree with a lot of what you said with the exception of the Macdonald signing; i actually like him and think he got market value.

 

I think we set the market and what players were getting yesterday was partially based on the ludicrous MacD signing. 

 

Would he have gotten that kind of money from another team? Probably, but we should have let another team do it instead. 

 

I don't have an issue with MacDonald; it's the contract I have an issue with because a) he's being paid like a #2/3 defenseman, b) he'll be used as a #1/2 defenseman; c) he's none of those things. He was 6th amongst defensemen in corsi, 5th in quality of competition. So he's bad even when facing weak competition - granted, this was over 19 games with the Flyers, so he may improve with a full training camp and season. He blocks a lot of shots, I'll give him that much. And his is quite a bit more mobile than Schenn and Grossmann. He does have some solid qualities.

 

It's not the $5M that is problematic in my view; it's the six years. He's not a core player, but he's being locked up like he is one.

[flyercanuck]

Trading a Vezina winner cancels out Giroux i/m/h/o.  Plus it's not like Giroux was some diamond in the rough who was expected to go in the 5th round and Homer geniously plucked him in the 1st.  He went right about where he was supposed to go. It's a good pick - but it's not Datsyuk in the 6th round either.

 

 Well he did do that, among a pile of other things. He also acquired Mason, who outplayed the traded Vezina winner last year. So THAT cancels out that.

 

  Giroux was a good pick. He went around where he was supposed to go, but there were plenty of other players around there too. And Homer broke the mold with that pick ...making it ok for the Flyers to take small skilled players. 

 

 Picking Datsyuk where he went was pure luck. If anyone thought he was going to turn into half the player he is, they wouldn't wait 6 rounds to do it. Detroit had 2-2 round picks that year that were total busts, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th and a 6th before the Datsyuk pick, bust, bust, bust, bust! They thought Adam Deleeuw was a better 6th rounder...you know, Adam Deleeuw?

[flyercanuck]

Not the worst ever, but he's down there close by. His inability to manage the cap (ask Hextall), numerous ridiculous contracts (length, overpaying, age), what I see as hit and miss drafting... And I reiterate what I think may be the biggest mistake he made... Trading Carter and Richards. You guys praise it as great returns, breaking up the frat party, etc etc... I view it as taking a team that was super close to the Cup and destroying it. Should've given it another run with some tweaks to see if they could do it again and win this time. It's the closest you e been since the 70's. I will never understand why he dismantled when he did.

 

 Just remember, Homer didn't trade Carter to LA. How good did he look in Columbus? Voracek, alone has outscored him and throw in Couturier. 

 

 Simmonds and Schenn for Richards? Grossmann and Cousins are also part of these deals. Let's rehash these trades 5 years from now when Phillys  players are in their prime and Carter and Richards are well past theirs. When you trade players in their prime for youth and picks it's hardly fair to judge until that youth has time to develop. I'd say they're coming along pretty damn well.

 

 

. Those 80s teams were closer to champion quality than the team that lost to Chicago. The greatest scoring machine in NHL history just got in the way of those.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Yeah. That's what I meant. The one too many was in the playoffs against the sabres in a series where goal scoring was the problem not goaltending.

 

 

Gotcha....

[flyercanuck]

I thought Washington might finally do something after years of being basically a one and done playoff team. New GM makes his mark by signing Orpik for 5 years at $5.5 and Niskanen for 7 years at $5.75?  

 

 Homer lives!

[pilldoc]

I thought Washington might finally do something after years of being basically a one and done playoff team. New GM makes his mark by signing Orpik for 5 years at $5.5 and Niskanen for 7 years at $5.75?  

 

 Homer lives!

 

those are just stupid contracts.....talk about putting all your eggs in one basket...

[radoran]

 Well he did do that, among a pile of other things. He also acquired Mason, who outplayed the traded Vezina winner last year. So THAT cancels out that.

 

  Giroux was a good pick. He went around where he was supposed to go, but there were plenty of other players around there too. And Homer broke the mold with that pick ...making it ok for the Flyers to take small skilled players. 

 

2013-14

Bobrovsky: 2.38/.923

Mason: 2.50/.917

 

Please to be explaining "outplayed... last year" because I don't really see any regular season metric by which Mason obviously "outplayed" Bobrovsky last season..

 

Also, too:

 

Bryzgalov Y1 Flyers: 33-16-7. 2.48/.909

Mason Y1 Flyers: 33-18-7, 2.50/.917

 

Again, I like Mason and think he is better than Bryz, but he hasn't exactly been a world-beater.

 

I did like the playoff Mason which could be a place he "outplayed": Bobrovsky, but Bob was up against the Pens and the Flyers drew the Rags...

 

And both lost.

[brelic]

Hextall has put out some very astute observations. Forgive me for wanting to down that glass of kool-aid, but he sounds like he really gets it.

 

"July 1 is one of those days where we all can get carried away. Sometimes, this day, you make some of the poorest decisions you make."

 

"This is a day where a lot of times, you do something and you have buyer's remorse," Hextall said. 

 

"In the history of unrestricted free agents, there's not a lot of what you would call top players with top character," Hextall said. "You get some top players that maybe have so-so character, and don't get me wrong, there's exceptions to the rule. ... For the most part, when you've got a top player that's a character guy, you're holding on to him."

 

"Every day, I want to make this franchise better and I want to build us into one of the top half a dozen teams where they're talking about us as one of the top contenders. That's my goal. If it takes a little bit of time, it takes a little bit of time. We've got pieces coming. We've got draft picks. We've got to keep going here and make methodical decisions and get better every day."

 

 

Consider some of the quotes when Clarke resigned and Homer was named:

 

“This should have happened last summer [the firing of Hitchcock and my resignation],” Clarke said Tuesday in a telephone interview. “I don’t even know the word for it — burned out, tired, or what — but I didn’t want to make the decisions a general manager had to make.”

 

 

Does that sound familiar at all? Not making decisions in the summer and waiting until your team goes - wait for it - 1-6-1, with 15 GF and 33 GA.

 

The Flyers waited to go 0-3 last season before firing Laviolette. They started the season 1-7, with 11 GF and 24 GA.

 

“More than anything, we all believe here around the organization that we’re not as bad as our record indicates,” Holmgren said in a voice not much louder than a whisper. “But we’re in a situation now where you have to crawl before you can walk.”

 

He did not anticipate a roster overhaul. On Tuesday, the Flyers recalled the pugnacious left wing Triston Grant from their American Hockey League affiliate, the Philadelphia Phantoms, “to give us a jolt of enthusiasm,” Holmgren said.

 

 

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

I guess "outplayed" isn't correct.

 

 Helped us forget?

[aziz]

I guess "outplayed" isn't correct.

 

mason did beat out bobrovsky in vezina voting this year.  so there's that.

[flyercanuck]

@aziz

 

Ya, THAT'S what I meant.