COMBINED: "Whither or Not Vinny"

[aziz]

Or we can hope that he has a better second year, contributes a lot and we want to see him in the lineup.

 

see, this is where i'm all conflicted about the whole thing.  vincent lecavalier provides no leadership to the flyers, no positive example for the younger players on the team, he is not clutch, he is not someone you look to for timely goals, he does not deliver on the idea of a pillar around which the team is built. 

 

but he does score goals.  they aren't the 12-seconds-left-in-the-game,-down-3-2,-tie-it-up-and-send-it-to-overtime goals.  they are the ones that made it 3-2, or the ones that put the game away 5-3 on the powerplay with 1:30 left.  point is, they count and they accomplish something.  20 times last season.  only 17 assists to go with them, and a frankly amazing -16, but still, 20 goals.  

 

strip away all of the baggage and context surrounding the situation:  a defensively weak 20 goal scorer who is a finisher rather than a creator at this point in his career.  it isn't the thing you really hope your team can have, but it isn't worthless.  grouped with the correct wingers, and that can be significant secondary scoring, it can be an effective second punch for an agressive offensive squad.

 

there are way better options out there, were the cap dollars not spent on VLC.  it is undeniably true, and i have no doubt at all that hextall is doing whatever he can to facilitate those options.  it's an obviously bad fit.  and i'm still 50-50 that he'll be around come camp.  if he is, though, it isn't like he is a null in the roster.  he isn't anything close to what we'd hoped for, isn't close to what we wish for, but 20 goals are 20 goals.  a team could do worse for a second line center.

[LegionOfDoom]

We're getting 20+ goals from him, he's no Trent Klatt, but we're still getting 20+ goals. Some of those goals "can" be momentum changing goals you know. Well they can be.

[flyercanuck]

We're getting 20+ goals from him, he's no Trent Klatt, but we're still getting 20+ goals. Some of those goals "can" be momentum changing goals you know. Well they can be.

 

 They must be....cause the goals against when he's lollygagging his way back the ice sure are.

[radoran]

Aren't we all here to enjoy watching the Flyers play hockey? I firmly believe that whether or not I enjoy it is entirely dependent on my own approach to it. Everything is framed by perspective.

 

So, wait, if we all sit down and just think positively about Vinny, he'll play better? You want me to call him Tinker Bell™ from now on?

 

As I have said - it's July. I don't see any Flyers hockey to watch. We're all talking about hypotheticals and potentialities. There are obvious downsides as well as potential upside. 

 

I didn't start any of these threads and I haven't commented on this one for, like, a week - and it's still going. One of the points of forums is to have discussion of both sides and not just "rah rah, the team's every move is great". What makes VLC a sacred cow that looking at his actual production and actual record is abhorrent? Why do we have to say he "only" misses 10-15 games a year so how is that "always injured"? Why do we keep talking about how he can really really play effective wing for the first time at 34?

 

Because that's what other teams who are considering whether to pick up the contract we all agree is a horrible deal are doing.

 

As for "negativity" I do think that over the course of the VLC experience, I have been clear in many, many threads that VLC can be effective, he just needs to be in a Top Six center position with effective wingers. I said when they signed him that that would need to be his role, but that for $4.5M if they can get 2(5)/60 out of him, they get their money's worth. But he needs to be at center if he's going to be a 60-point player. He's not going to create or be involved in as much from the wing.

 

He scored something like three quarters of his goals last year either on the power play or in sixth man in (I believe 14 of 20). He can be an effective "winger" in man advantage situations and should be used in that capacity if they can't get rid of him. But his role - his only really effective role as a five on five skater for this team - is at second line center.

 

Now, this being July, the question is "is that the best position for the team - not just the player?" And also, how much does that affect the development of other players?

 

I have all the questions in the world about BSchenn, but this 22-year-old just had as many goals and more points than VLC in his first full season in the league (and played all 82 games). Do we want to believe in that trend line - the one that they traded away the captain of the franchise to obtain (along with Simmonds) - or hope that two obvious trends on 34-year-old VLC's record of declining points, repeated injury reverse themselves?

 

It's not "negative" to say that dealing VLC would be best for this team. It's obvious - and that's why the team itself allowed his agent to talk to other teams. It's why other posters are saying to sit him in the press box or force him to play fourth line center "until he decides to leave."

 

And while I'm familiar with the fading of passion for a franchise (see: Sixers, Philadelphia Seventy-), as it happens, I'll be happily cheering on the Flyers when the season starts, regardless of who's on the roster. And, like you, @aziz and others, will be discussing the positives and negatives of the season.

 

As always, though, my loyalty is to the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

 

And that's obviously Ron Hextall's loyalty as well.

[brelic]

So, wait, if we all sit down and just think positively about Vinny, he'll play better?

 

No, of course not. That's outside of anyone's control.

 

But I stand by the bit you quoted, and that is that my enjoyment of the Flyers is entirely dependent on myself and on nothing external to myself.

 

As always, though, my loyalty is to the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

 

Absolutely!

[radoran]

No, of course not. That's outside of anyone's control.

 

That was ninja'd

 

But I stand by the bit you quoted, and that is that my enjoyment of the Flyers is entirely dependent on myself and on nothing external to myself.

 

I would never dispute with someone "why" they liked a team. That's just ridiculous from the jump. It's like saying people who don't like chocolate are wrong.

 

If we didn't enjoy the Flyers, we wouldn't be writing about them on a message board in July.

[pilldoc]

I cannot and will not speak for other posters, but I believe, IMO, that many, including myself are jsut flat out frustrated by the situation.  Many of us all saw the warning signs when he was signed. (contract, decline in production).  However his back injury and being exposed as a defensive liability just seemed like adding gasoline to an already open flame.

 

I agree, I cheer for the team and not necessarily the player.  I will cheer wildly if Vinny scores a gamer winner and I will happly as a clam when the Flyers can move his disasterous contract to another team.  As I have stated in numerous threads.  I do not hate Vinny, I just hate the contract he was given.  In the long run, IMO, once Lavy was canned, Vinny's role on this changed dramatically and his lack of defensive play was exposed.  Was that more or less because of the injury is open for debate.

 

Totally agree with @radoran ....

 

 

It's not "negative" to say that dealing VLC would be best for this team. It's obvious - and that's why the team itself allowed his agent to talk to other teams. It's why other posters are saying to sit him in the press box or force him to play fourth line center "until he decides to leave."

 

And while I'm familiar with the fading of passion for a franchise (see: Sixers, Philadelphia Seventy-), as it happens, I'll be happily cheering on the Flyers when the season starts, regardless of who's on the roster. And, like you, @aziz and others, will be discussing the positives and negatives of the season.

 

As always, though, my loyalty is to the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

 

And that's obviously Ron Hextall's loyalty as well.

 

For this team to move forward and be successful, IMO,  Vinny cannot be part of that vision.  His cap hit alone hand ties Hexy.  Vinny very well may surprise us all this and rebound to have a very nice season of around 60-75 points.  However, by having Vinny on the roster, does that hamper the development of other players such as Coots and Laughton?

[brelic]

It's like saying people who don't like chocolate are wrong.

 

They ARE wrong!!!

 

If we didn't enjoy the Flyers, we wouldn't be writing about them on a message board in July.

 

Yes, you're right. We'd be out living normal, productive lives

[Irishjim]

while i usually don't post things started from "The Hockey Writers" (I find most authors are moms basement dwelling hot pocket eaters)  this guy brings up a good reason..remember its summer, hockey news is slow and i'm bored...enjoy

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/vincent-lecavalier-making-the-move-from-broad-street-to-the-desert/?utm_content=buffer8198f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[Jmdodgesrt4]

If I'm vinny I'm looking to go anywhere where I'm wanted. I'm def not wanted in Philly and don't wanna do forth line work. So I pack and await my departure

[yave1964]

The 'Yotes lost ribiero and Vrbata and only added Gagner. If they believe he is a number one center they are going to be in for a sad surprise. That leaves Vermette, one of my favorite players, very underrated but offense is not his strong suit, he will score 45-50 points a year but does most everything else right, he will even finish in the top three or four in faceoffs. In essence, the perfect 2nd line center.

 

  Vinnie may be what the Coyotes need, but they along with everyone else in the league know the Flyers desperately want out from under his contract and the return is not going to be much. Maybe an autographed Dave Tippett card and a bag of used pucks, but that is about it and the Flyers would have to eat some salary. Essentially there is no market for the guy, but yes the Coyotes might be well served to at least kick the tires.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

I hope that for all involved, Lecavalier DOES get dealt.

 

I never did think he was a fit for the Flyers from the beginning and always thought, outside the Lightning, there were better fits in the NHL for him.

 

Yes, we ALL know Vinnie isn't the same player he was a few years ago, he is injury prone, and probably isn't as physical as he once was playing center, but he still does  have some good hockey to offer the right team.

Philly is NOT that right team and aside from taking up cap and roster space the Flyers need desperately, he is also wasting away his last few remaining good hockey years on a club that just doesn't have a role for him.

And it will get worse as the fanbase wants him out more n more, and his value further drops by this perceived "Vinnie is washed up" stuff, due to him playing as mediocre as he is on a team he shouldn't have been on in the first place.

 

Personally, when the Nashville rumors were floating around, I thought VLC would fit in there REAL good. Especially with a more balanced minded coach in Laviolette over iron curtain defense, but mediocre offensive minded Barry Trotz.

The Preds have enough physical nastiness already on the team that VLC only has to contribute marginally to that, while still being able to offer up a decent 2nd line center game, and still benefit Nashville with his STILL good vision of the ice and being able to find open wingers.

Again, all about the right fit.

 

Now that Nashville seems to be in the rearview, is Arizona the right fit?

I wouldn't think so at first, because whenever the Yotes have played their best hockey, its also been a defense first system with solid goaltending to back that up.

However, it seems as if the Yotes have been trying to move in a more offensive oriented fashion...though they seriously lack the horses to really do it right.

I think VLC can help that team, again, in a 2nd line scoring, 3rd line scoring/checking and 1st/2nd PP unit role.

 

The fact that the Yotes are desperate for anyone with a modicum of offensive talent, means they will go out of their way to fit VLC in the lineup in the best possible places...and even get players that may better work with him towards that end.

Whether VLC wants to regularly play across the country is another matter, but if he cares at all for what is left of his NHL career, IMO, he'd be best served going somewhere where he can be part of the solution rather than a spare or in-the-way part as he is in Philadelphia.

 

Kudos to VLC for wanting to play in a "passionate hockey market" like Philly (he did say that upon signing with the Flyers), but the fit just isn't there, and it never has been.

 

If the pieces are in place, and all Hextall needs is your approval Vinnie, I say go for it....Go West Young Man, Go West!  Ok, ok...so VLC is older than I am but so what?  

Edited July 23, 2014 by TropicalFruitGirl26

[Irishjim]

The 'Yotes lost ribiero and Vrbata and only added Gagner. If they believe he is a number one center they are going to be in for a sad surprise. That leaves Vermette, one of my favorite players, very underrated but offense is not his strong suit, he will score 45-50 points a year but does most everything else right, he will even finish in the top three or four in faceoffs. In essence, the perfect 2nd line center.

 

  Vinnie may be what the Coyotes need, but they along with everyone else in the league know the Flyers desperately want out from under his contract and the return is not going to be much. Maybe an autographed Dave Tippett card and a bag of used pucks, but that is about it and the Flyers would have to eat some salary. Essentially there is no market for the guy, but yes the Coyotes might be well served to at least kick the tires.

what i was surprised to read the yotes only had 3 20 goal scorers...ouch..

[murraycraven]

Until he gets dealt the rumor mill keeps churning and it is getting old... Really old. Not sure why VLC would want to go there honestly and his NMC will most likely kill any deal in the desert...

[Polaris922]

He's going to be made into a pie?

[The Quigster]

All the other owners/GMs smell blood when it comes to the Flyers,thanks to Clarkie&Homer's past dealings. They feel very comfortable,thinking that if they wait,the Flyers will cave.This may be the year Hexie reverses that type of thinking. Would anybody here,knowing Vinny's rep want him?

[OccamsRazor]

what i was surprised to read the yotes only had 3 20 goal scorers...ouch..

 

I do that in a heart beat the question would Vinny. Two guys for him? Hell i'd take just one!!!!

[murraycraven]

I hear Crosby likes man-pie Polaris... That is man-desert

Edited July 23, 2014 by murraycraven

[Polaris922]

I hear Crosby likes man-pie Polaris... That is man-desert

Heh heh... Man-desert? Tough sand?

[jammer2]

  Regarding VLC, either you are part of the solution, or part of the problem....Vinny falls into the latter category....I will openly admit my disdain for Vinny, he is lazy, and openly refuses to "get with the program". If my some miracle we find he's not a defensive albatross, then....by all means, play him....but if he shows up like the same ol Vinny, pressbox him...for life.

[jammer2]

@Irishjim  The writer Mike Burse was making sense until he spit out "Vinny plays a very underrated defensive game"...ha ha...what is this guy smoking??

[Irishjim]

@Irishjim  The writer Mike Burse was making sense until he spit out "Vinny plays a very underrated defensive game"...ha ha...what is this guy smoking??

like i said "the hockey writers" are moms basement dwellers but i was bored

[King Knut]

I still say the lack of a market is perception.

His contract is not terrible and I think he's still got some gas in the tank.

If I'm Hexy, I'm asking Chief to play VLC in the top two lines for the first three months of the season so he can look awesome and then deal him between Xmas and the deadline when people get desperate.

Either that or I commit to him on the 4th line and roll that as a third scoring line, not an energy line and put people with Vinny who can produce some offense and give them real minutes (15 or so) per night.

The 'Yotes lost ribiero and Vrbata and only added Gagner. If they believe he is a number one center they are going to be in for a sad surprise. That leaves Vermette, one of my favorite players, very underrated but offense is not his strong suit, he will score 45-50 points a year but does most everything else right, he will even finish in the top three or four in faceoffs. In essence, the perfect 2nd line center.

Vinnie may be what the Coyotes need, but they along with everyone else in the league know the Flyers desperately want out from under his contract and the return is not going to be much. Maybe an autographed Dave Tippett card and a bag of used pucks, but that is about it and the Flyers would have to eat some salary. Essentially there is no market for the guy, but yes the Coyotes might be well served to at least kick the tires.

[Irishjim]

 

The Philadelphia Flyers' 11th all-time transaction involving the Nashville Predators was the signing of restricted free agent defenseman Shea Weber to an offer sheet worth a reported $110 million over 14 years.

It also may be the last one for a very long time.

 

read the full article here:  http://daily.phanaticmag.com/2014/07/shea-weber-is-why-vinny-lecavalier-is.html

Edited July 24, 2014 by Irishjim

[OccamsRazor]

 

 

The Philadelphia Flyers' 11th all-time transaction involving the Nashville Predators was the signing of restricted free agent defenseman Shea Weber to an offer sheet worth a reported $110 million over 14 years.

It also may be the last one for a very long time.

 

read the full article here:  http://daily.phanaticmag.com/2014/07/shea-weber-is-why-vinny-lecavalier-is.html

 

 

 

Eff the Preds it's what they get by playing hardball with Weber now they have the boatanchor contract....they deserve it.