flyercanuck Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @brelic Thornton gets a bad rap...not sure how deserved it is. His team definately underachieves...but Thorntons postseasons aren't that bad. last year he only had 3 points in 7 games, the year before 10 in 11, then 5 in 5, 17 in 18, 12 in 15, 5 in 6, 10 in 13, 11 in 11. Not world beating numbers, but to me it seems like Thorntons been branded an underachiever for years. And those numbers are pretty good for an underachiever. Not to mention he's a setup man...if his linemates aren't finishing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'd say that a quarter point per game drop is significant for one of your core pieces. If Giroux had those numbers, I'd be disappointed. Consider that he's a career regular season +154 and a career playoff -27. Compare that to Marleau who is career regular season +18 and playoff -11. His PPG also drops from 0.75 to 0.71 in the playoffs, but that is manageable drop. Other players have drops too, though.. Crosby from 1.38 to 1.20; Datsyuk from 0.97 to 0.74; Toews from 0.90 to 0.86. Kane keeps it even (0.97 to 0.98). Giroux goes up from 0.92 to 1.07. Not sure where I'm going with this... haha. It's a drop off for sure, I'll give you that, but the numbers aren't bad at all. The rep that he's built up as being good, as long as it's not the playoffs, isn't really all that accurate. Not as good sure, but by no means bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 It's a drop off for sure, I'll give you that, but the numbers aren't bad at all. The rep that he's built up as being good, as long as it's not the playoffs, isn't really all that accurate. Not as good sure, but by no means bad. Maybe he shoulders a large part of the blame because his team underachieves? They have strong regular season success and just can't put the whole thing together in the playoffs. Of course, in context, it would be a record most teams would love to have. In the last 13 seasons, they've finished 1st in their division 6 times - that's half the time. And another 4 times they finished 2nd. They only made it past the 2nd round 3 times, and never to the SCF. That's a great run of success in the regular season and post-season appearances. They've definitely had more playoff success than the Flyers over that same span. But for the strength of their team over so many years, I think a lot of fans see it as underachieving because they seemingly had everything they needed for at least one Cup in there somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 How many Stanley cups does Toews have versus Crosby? Twice as many.....OK how about we talk about Olympic gold medals..........Funny, that is twice as many too. Just sayin'.......Toews gets something that Crosby can only dream of, respect. It is something that is earned and for all of his skill and ability, Crosby is severely lacking in that department. If you don't consider Toews on the same tier as Crosby, I would have to say you are not being entirely honest with yourself. When I think of an overrated player, Phil Kessel/Dion Phaneuf are both poster children for that dubious title. Crosby and Toews have each captained a team to two SC Finals. Crosby is 1-1. Toews is 2-0. Crosby was the youngest captain in history to do so. Says something. As for respect, Crosby has won three Ted Lindsay awards including the last two. That goes to the most outstanding player as voted on by his peers. Toews? Zero. I'd say that's respect. Crosby has also won a Mark Messier Leadership award which, among other things, recognizes an individual as a superior leader within their sport. Messier - a guy who supposedly knows a thing or two about leadership - picks the recipient. Not sure where you got your Gold Medal information but Crosby has two Olympic Golds for Team Canada; as a captain in 2014 (Toews was an Alternate) and as an Alternate Captain in 2010 (Toews was neither a C nor A). As many have noted - there is no question Crosby is well ahead of Toews when it comes to skill. I can see an argument either way in the "leadership" department but it's a lot closer than you are making out to be. But hey - never miss a chance to dump on the guy, right? Edit: Overrated? Toews actually. In 8 full seasons (will use "on pace" for the lockout year) he's topped 70 once and 60 only three times...all while playing with Patrick Kane and, often, Marion Hossa. I'm of the mindset that the leadership provided by a Captain is often overrated so I see Toews as overrated. Dustin Brown is known more his agitation and a bunch of questionable hits yet he "captained" the Kings to two Cups in three years. So much for leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @brelic Okay if you take Toews leadership out of it you are still left with one hell of a hockey player. A faceoff king who plays all 200 feet and never floats around on any shift ever. He is someone who you know has no quit in him ever. Truly one of the leagues greats. I will, however give you this, when a team wins its superstars usually get elevated perception wise, Zetterberg has had it happen, Quick, lots of players. Conversely when a team loses its stars often get called into question. It is the nature of the beast. My overrated players:Corey Crawford on a bad team would be out of the game in a couple of years. Chara Stick a fork in him. The sedins. have been slipping for several years now. Big Buff. Absolutely love him fun player but he has holes in his game as a forward, holes in his game as a d-man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Chara Stick a fork in him. The sedins. have been slipping for several years now. agree @brelic Okay if you take Toews leadership out of it you are still left with one hell of a hockey player. A faceoff king who plays all 200 feet and never floats around on any shift ever. He is someone who you know has no quit in him ever. Truly one of the leagues greats. I will, however give you this, when a team wins its superstars usually get elevated perception wise, Zetterberg has had it happen, Quick, lots of players. Conversely when a team loses its stars often get called into question. It is the nature of the beast. Chara Stick a fork in him. The sedins. have been slipping for several years now. Big Buff. Absolutely love him fun player but he has holes in his game as a forward, holes in his game as a d-man. again i'm right there with ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 But hey - never miss a chance to dump on the guy, right? Dump on the guy? I actually gave him credit for several things. I did say leadership is not one of his strong points but even that is neither here or there. Someone else started in about it and all I said was there are many better options for overrated players than Toews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Dump on the guy? I actually gave him credit for several things. I did say leadership is not one of his strong points but even that is neither here or there. Someone else started in about it and all I said was there are many better options for overrated players than Toews. "Toews gets something that Crosby can only dream of, respect. It is something that is earned and for all of his skill and ability, Crosby is severely lacking in that department." Sorry but that's taking a dump on the guy - especially when it's flat out wrong. And I didn't even bring up his leadership during the lockout. He was front and center for the players during that time. Don't think for a second that went unnoticed....and earned him a whole boatload of respect from his peers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'll 2nd Dustin Brown...29 points last year, he's got 22 this year. Wow. Those are bad year Matt read numbers. Phil Kessel - Leaf fans thought until recently he was actually a superstar. If he's not scoring goals (and he's not) then he's completely useless. Karlsson/Letang/Subban - sorry but defencemen should be able to play defence. Subban is slightly better than the other 2, but I thought he'd have come along further by now. Jonathan Quick - he's been great at times, and not so great at times. His .902 save percentage 2 seasons ago was pretty lame. his .909 this year ain't much better. Ovechkin - another great scorer, but not so great player. If he was half as great as he thinks he is, he'd have led his team somewhere....anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sorry but that's taking a dump on the guy - Sorry, but it is not. All it is is disagreeing with the way a fan from Pittsburgh sees it and someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Okay if you take Toews leadership out of it you are still left with one hell of a hockey player. A faceoff king who plays all 200 feet and never floats around on any shift ever. He is someone who you know has no quit in him ever. Truly one of the leagues greats. Completely agree. I wasn't trying to take anything away from Toews so much as setting his 'leadership' in context. You worded it much better than I could right here: I will, however give you this, when a team wins its superstars usually get elevated perception wise, Zetterberg has had it happen, Quick, lots of players. Conversely when a team loses its stars often get called into question. It is the nature of the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Mats SundinHonest to God, the very first name I thought of when I saw this thread title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 I'll 2nd Dustin Brown...29 points last year, he's got 22 this year. Wow. Those are bad year Matt read numbers. Phil Kessel - Leaf fans thought until recently he was actually a superstar. If he's not scoring goals (and he's not) then he's completely useless. Karlsson/Letang/Subban - sorry but defencemen should be able to play defence. Subban is slightly better than the other 2, but I thought he'd have come along further by now. Jonathan Quick - he's been great at times, and not so great at times. His .902 save percentage 2 seasons ago was pretty lame. his .909 this year ain't much better. Ovechkin - another great scorer, but not so great player. If he was half as great as he thinks he is, he'd have led his team somewhere....anywhere.Agree with the others but Ovechkin. You have to have a good team to "go somewhere" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 @yave1964 Chara, overrated, really?? Sure, the guy NOW isn't what he used to be, but Father Time has taken care of him there.Make no mistake, I am about as far away from being a Bruins/Chara fan as you're gonna find, but in his prime (and even just a hint now), Chara was a DOMINANT defenseman, a scary enforcer type, and the type of defenseman every team wants to have on their roster. The NY Islanders and Ottawa Senators may not have known what they had in the guy when he was with them, but I think Chara's career will best be remembered by sheer defensive and tough dominance.And hey, the guy even used to go for skates in the offensive zone and get some scoring opportunities that way, if not a goal or two. And you know, I don't even think Boston's 'system' was the reason he was so good for so long, although it probably didn't hurt him that he played in a defense-first system.But he skated well enough, positioned himself well enough, and hit hard enough where he probably would have been good in any system he was allowed to mature into.And whatever gaffes he made could often be covered up with those damned pterodactyl wingspans of his... Stick a fork in him now, yes (although Cedric Paquette would probably beg to differ with that...lol), but in his prime, awesome defenseman and not anywhere NEAR my list of being overrated.....and I curse him the whole way for terrorizing my Bolts over the years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 @TropicalFruitGirl26 no argument about his prime, an amazing specimen. now he is getting by on reputation only. a seven foot pylon and nothing like he was, at best the third best d-man on his own team. I took overrated to mean overrated right now, not for their career. For his career he was a force. no longer is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 @TropicalFruitGirl26 no argument about his prime, an amazing specimen. now he is getting by on reputation only. a seven foot pylon and nothing like he was, at best the third best d-man on his own team. I took overrated to mean overrated right now, not for their career. For his career he was a force. no longer is all.Ofc someone past their prime will decline..not really fair to him, isnt he in his late 30s? Not really overrated. No one says hes a great dman now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ofc someone past their prime will decline..not really fair to him, isnt he in his late 30s? Not really overrated. No one says hes a great dman nowI think you need to watch NHL tonight a bit more, lol. They act as if Chara is still King Kong. simply getting by on reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Agree with the others but Ovechkin. You have to have a good team to "go somewhere"Ordinarily I would agree. But in this case he has actually singlehandedly and selfishly sabotaged his team. He was kind of worthless on the Russian team, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Shjon Podein was way overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Shjon Podein was way overrated.Don't you have to be rated before you can be overrated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Don't you have to be rated before you can be overrated?No. You can go from experiencing no joy at all (eg watching Flyers) - "unjoy" - to being overjoyed (switching the channel), so why is it any different with this rating thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Another one that came to mind, i dont know if he really is a superstar, but i have found Alexei Kovalev to be quite overrated. Apparently the most talented player some claim. Or that he could have been the best player in the world if he had heart AKA "canadian spirit". I find all of those claims to be false. Ordinarily I would agree. But in this case he has actually singlehandedly and selfishly sabotaged his team. He was kind of worthless on the Russian team, too.How did he singlehandedly sabotage his team? by not playing defense? his main job is to score after all and he did just that in his more dynamic years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ouch. Kinda feel sorry for Gretzky. He was the best player on a 4-Cup winner, was awarded a Conn Smythe and could easily have won another two or three. I remember the articles in the media at the time, and they were a bit a farce sometimes: "After putting the Oilers up 5-0 on 2 goals and 3 assists from Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier took over in the 3rd period for a 5-1 win." :/ So yeah, after he left Edmonton, he never won another Cup, which shouldn't be a surprise: the Kings were a rebuilding team, finishing 4th last in the league the year before. They spent a few years re-tooling before 1993, when Gretz picked up that team on his bad back and hauled them to the Finals where they lost 3 games in OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Disagree with all the negative Sundin talk. The guy got better as he got older and I went from hating him to totally respecting him as a player. He usually did not have much to work with, played against all the leagues elite checkers and still put up respectable stats. Kessel is a bum, a pure dog who can wreck a roster. Just to show you stats don't mean much, Toews will probably finish in and around Kessel's point totals, but if I was asked to pick one player to build a team around, I'd take Towes....NOT Crosby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Disagree with all the negative Sundin talk. The guy got better as he got older and I went from hating him to totally respecting him as a player. He usually did not have much to work with, played against all the leagues elite checkers and still put up respectable stats. Kessel is a bum, a pure dog who can wreck a roster. Just to show you stats don't mean much, Toews will probably finish in and around Kessel's point totals, but if I was asked to pick one player to build a team around, I'd take Towes....NOT Crosby.He did put up respectable numbers, i dont think anyone is denying that. But the fact that he made the HHOF and that people claim he is in the top 3 among swedish players makes him overrated. i mean he doesnt have a single award in the NHL and was rarely amongst the top 10. Although, there are more overrated players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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