Flyers 2023-24: A Post-Season Appraisal

[Poulin20]

3 hours ago, CoachX said:

the only smart move the Flyers have made since 1975 was signing Jon Sim. He's the only player to overturn instant replay

Jon Sim Jon Sim Jon Sim 

[tucson83]

3 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

You're right. This draft isn't loaded with exciting centre depth, and there's precious little in the #12 range (+/-3 spots).

 

that's the problem with fans not getting the fact the tanking will not fix and cure everything, not only the lottery makes it harder but the fact the players in the draft class have to be good, cant be drafting provys, jvrs, and patricks and it will fix everything. that's why this organization is preaching patience because it's not going to be easy and the fact is alot of teams in our division are really good, we just have to hope that teams in our division eventually take a step back and we eventually take the mantle. just tearing it down in this division is a death sentence.

[JR Ewing]

1 minute ago, tucson83 said:

that's the problem with fans not getting the fact the tanking will not fix and cure everything, not only the lottery makes it harder but the fact the players in the draft class have to be good, cant be drafting provys, jvrs, and patricks and it will fix everything. that's why this organization is preaching patience because it's not going to be easy and the fact is alot of teams in our division are really good, we just have to hope that teams in our division eventually take a step back and we eventually take the mantle. just tearing it down in this division is a death sentence.

 

Yes, it's not just a matter of luck with rebuilds, but a matter of timing, and the right player is usually evident over a year from the draft, and sometimes earlier than that, in extreme cases like McDavid, and a few other kids granted exceptional status.

 

I caught this show with the Oilers, who picked #1 with Taylor Hall, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and Nail Yakupov. Hall was skilled but interested only in himself, and Nugent-Hopkins is a very good all around player, but not a cornerstone. Then they picked Yakupov, who's so infuriating, that Brian Burke had to physically restrain one of his scouts from attacking the kid at the pre-draft interview.

 

It was only when they fluked their way to a lotto win with Connor McDavid that the right player came along.

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

It was only when they fluked their way to a lotto win with Connor McDavid that the right player came along.

 

And still haven't won (the Cup) with him.    Not attempting to pour salt; just doubling down that it's not automatic even then.

 

But in a cap era, it's still the way to go.   You're not getting there just throwing Comcast money around like it's 1999.

[flyer4ever]

2 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

Yes, it's not just a matter of luck with rebuilds, but a matter of timing, and the right player is usually evident over a year from the draft, and sometimes earlier than that, in extreme cases like McDavid, and a few other kids granted exceptional status.

 

I caught this show with the Oilers, who picked #1 with Taylor Hall, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and Nail Yakupov. Hall was skilled but interested only in himself, and Nugent-Hopkins is a very good all around player, but not a cornerstone. Then they picked Yakupov, who's so infuriating, that Brian Burke had to physically restrain one of his scouts from attacking the kid at the pre-draft interview.

 

It was only when they fluked their way to a lotto win with Connor McDavid that the right player came along.

All valid points, no argument here. However, 2 years away from a 50 year cup drought I would rather see a BITFU than stumble through another 14 years of this corporate bulls*#t mediocrity. I would prefer the small glimmer of hope of a few high draft picks over another round of Staal, Atkinson, Johnson, Ellis, Johansen, Couturier contract, etc etc etc. But thats just me. 

8 weeks of real hockey until Danny B tips his hand. I am not optimistic.

[RonJeremy]

17 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Well ****, all that based on less than 30 games. You got some lottery numbers to share? 

You're certainty about this comes from what information? 

 

The fantastical scenario where Anahiem gives up its 1st pick happens how?  because you'd "alpha up" on the trade partner or something as looney?

Who had the leverage? 

Where is your info from or is that scenario what you'd do on Playstation?

Your post is a bunch of ill informed nonsense. But written in an authoritative way, to seem like you knew better then and certainly know better now. 

Your insight is usually way better than this garbage. 

 

 

 Gauthier is a highly regarded player, even if he didn't want to come to Philly his value had to be higher than an injury prone one dimensional defenseman. I don't have any proof,just like you don't have proof that Drysdale was the best deal out there. How is asking for Anaheims pick with a protection for one of the top-rated guys from the 2022 draft an unfair deal....and I don't have a Playstation.  I'm just pissed off because I truly believe Drysdale is a flop and Gauthier is gonna be way better. We should have been more careful after the Ellis deal and drafting Patrick.  How the hell could you trade for a guy who's been injured multiple times. This is not based on thirty games, it's bases on three NHL seasons where he has basically shown nothing. Didn't we have enough of our own injured guys who's development was hindered , we had to trade for another one.

Edited April 19 by RonJeremy

[JR Ewing]

17 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

And still haven't won (the Cup) with him.    Not attempting to pour salt; just doubling down that it's not automatic even then.

 

No, though the rebuild was materially hurt by Peter Chiarelli's blunders.

-The Milan Lucic free agent signing in 2017.. They got out of by trading Lucic for James Neal and then buying him out. It was the right trade for Ken Holland to make, since it allowed them to sign Zach Hyman. The dead cap from all of this is one will expire after next season.

-The Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson trade. Larsson is a good defender, but not worth nearly Hall.

-1st and 2nd round picks for Griffin Reinhart. The Isles probably laughed themselves to death when they completed the deal.

-The next series of trades almost requires an essay of its own... The Old Boys Club were livid when Jordan Eberle ducked a hit in the 2017 playoffs, so they wanted him gone, dealing him for Ryan Strome, and then dealt Strome to the Rangers for one of the softest players in the history of the game, Ryan Spooner. In turn, Chiarelli deal Spooner to Vancouver for Sam Gagner. In one of the worst examples of asset management you can imagine, Chiarelli turned Jordan and Sam Gagner into Sam Gagner.

-And then, because life can be unfair, half of the Oilers blueline was carved out almost in an instant: Andrej Sekera tore his Achilles tendon and was finished as a player. Oscar Klefbom developed arthritis which was so serious that he had to retire at only 26. Adam Larsson's father died across the street from the arena in Edmonton, and Larsson couldn't bear to play there anymore, walking/signing in Seattle.

 

It's all a long way of saying that you're 100 percent correct, and that there are no guarantees with this, even if you do things right.

 

17 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

But in a cap era, it's still the way to go.   You're not getting there just throwing Comcast money around like it's 1999.

The draft is the way to do it; absolutely.

[JR Ewing]

33 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

All valid points, no argument here. However, 2 years away from a 50 year cup drought I would rather see a BITFU than stumble through another 14 years of this corporate bulls*#t mediocrity. I would prefer the small glimmer of hope of a few high draft picks over another round of Staal, Atkinson, Johnson, Ellis, Johansen, Couturier contract, etc etc etc. But thats just me. 

8 weeks of real hockey until Danny B tips his hand. I am not optimistic.

 

I agree. I'm saying that the smart teams, like Chicago, plan this sort of thing out when they see the right player come along.

[radoran]

15 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

I agree. I'm saying that the smart teams, like Chicago, plan this sort of thing out when they see the right player come along.

 

To be fair, Buffalo did as well with McDavid and Eichel on the block.

 

They got the consolation prize, then lost it.

 

No guarantees.

 

No evidence that teams can win without bottoming out, either.

 

[flyercanuck]

 

 

Of course if you rebuild, you have to have good management to do the rebuild.

 

But if you don't have good management, rebuilding or not just gets you where we've been for decades....cupless. 

 

And I can easily say I'd rather have Connor McDavid on my team than everyone the Flyers have drafted over the last decade. They wouldn't win a cup, but at least you get to watch the best player in the world. Even with the horrible start to the season they're still sitting 9th overall....and their management clearly aren't geniuses, but they also drafted Draisaitl. They got 2 players scoring over 100 points, an 82 point defenceman, another scoring 50 goals...how do the Flyers add up...lets see, it takes our top 3 scorers to outscore McDavid, Sanheim has half as many points as Bouchard, and our top goal scorer was 21 behind Hyman. 

 

 

“Coaches don’t have a crystal ball to know what a player is going to be later in the year” Torts on Couturier & load management

How about NOT running a guy coming off a long term injury right into the ground? 

 

 

 

Edited April 20 by flyercanuck

[JR Ewing]

5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Bobby "The Brain" Heenan had one that always made me laugh: "Some drink from the fountain of knowledge and some just gargle". I know there's no way that he made it up, but it's still funny.

 

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

I agree. I'm saying that the smart teams, like Chicago, plan 

 

 

Yaaaaa....you're not getting anyone running the Flyers doing THAT! 

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

No, though the rebuild was materially hurt by Peter Chiarelli's blunders.

-The Milan Lucic free agent signing in 2017.. They got out of by trading Lucic for James Neal and then buying him out. It was the right trade for Ken Holland to make, since it allowed them to sign Zach Hyman. The dead cap from all of this is one will expire after next season.

-The Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson trade. Larsson is a good defender, but not worth nearly Hall.

-1st and 2nd round picks for Griffin Reinhart. The Isles probably laughed themselves to death when they completed the deal.

-The next series of trades almost requires an essay of its own... The Old Boys Club were livid when Jordan Eberle ducked a hit in the 2017 playoffs, so they wanted him gone, dealing him for Ryan Strome, and then dealt Strome to the Rangers for one of the softest players in the history of the game, Ryan Spooner. In turn, Chiarelli deal Spooner to Vancouver for Sam Gagner. In one of the worst examples of asset management you can imagine, Chiarelli turned Jordan and Sam Gagner into Sam Gagner.

-And then, because life can be unfair, half of the Oilers blueline was carved out almost in an instant: Andrej Sekera tore his Achilles tendon and was finished as a player. Oscar Klefbom developed arthritis which was so serious that he had to retire at only 26. Adam Larsson's father died across the street from the arena in Edmonton, and Larsson couldn't bear to play there anymore, walking/signing in Seattle.

 

It's all a long way of saying that you're 100 percent correct, and that there are no guarantees with this, even if you do things right.

 

The draft is the way to do it; absolutely.

I'm completely with you on the Edmonton experience. I can certainly emphasize that it had to be painful.  

 

I imagine the Flyers would emulate it.  This is probably why Tucson takes the position it does (aside from sheer idiocy).

 

The problem with not going the draft route (i know I'm preaching to the choir  -- actually, I'm probably the choir repeating the liturgy back to the preacher) is you end up with a team like the flyers with a room full of complementary players that are paid so much that you can't afford to go out and pay a game changer. Maybe one, but only one.  So you end up with, at best, a wild card team and delude yourself into "this was a good year. My sister looked really good on our date."

[radoran]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

“Coaches don’t have a crystal ball to know what a player is going to be later in the year” Torts on Couturier & load management

How about NOT running a guy coming off a long term injury right into the ground? 

 

They don't have a crystal ball, but they know how players perform.

 

To pretend that every player can play 110% at every time is a fundamental failing of a coach.

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, radoran said:

 

They don't have a crystal ball, but they know how players perform.

 

To pretend that every player can play 110% at every time is a fundamental failing of a coach.

 

Then after running him into the ground, he has the arrogance to bench him. 

[GratefulFlyers]

13 hours ago, radoran said:

To pretend that every player can play 110% at every time is a fundamental failing of a coach.

 

Remember when Voracek said basically the same thing - "nobody goes 100% all the time" - my how the haters enjoyed that one...!

 

re: Couturier's 20mins/game early in the season. Tortorella said if he hadn't played Couturier so much he would've complained about his ice time. Well okay maybe that's true but so what. That's a laughable excuse. Why not just say "I thought he could handle it and I was wrong." 

 

I liked 80% of what Tortorella did with the team this year but the 20% was bad. I don't mind he values his grinders so highly; good ones help NHL teams every night. The Flyers' grinders were effective forecheckers, also very good defensively. But key moments like OT (JT blamed himself for not practicing it enough; not a word about his player choices) you can't trot out 3rd and 4th liners and expect to win. 

 

And in the ultimate "key moment" this season - G82  - Frost and Farabee (I think both) sit the entire 3rd and it's Cates, Poehling and Hathaway. I'm not knocking that line they were effective all year at what they do. They're just not likely to get you a season-saving goal.

 

Briere's presser...the Drysdale news is not encouraging. Hopefully "core surgery" isn't as bad as it sounds because it sounds pretty bad for a guy who's "strength" is his skating.

[flyercanuck]

58 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

They're just not likely to get you a season-saving goal.

 

 

While I totally agree with what you're saying here, the future of this franchise may well lie within this team NOT scoring that goal and continuing to think they're way ahead on the rebuild. because they're not. The team is full of holes at the most important positions there is in hockey. 

[flyer4ever]

Has anyone on this esteemed panel of hockey gurus ever been to Vorhees or the Wells Fargo Center in a shirt and tie? The reason I ask is this. A lot, and I mean a lot of respected hockey people have entered Flyerland and shortly after arriving in the hockey ops suites theis nuts have fallen off and their spines have turned to dust.  Curious if this happened to you too.

Why is this so hard for so many. There are 31 other teams in the league, some successful, some not. All the examples needed are right there in front of their faces, yet somehow the great Flyer mojo continues to get to neither, they just seem so happy to be mediocre forever. I would respect them a lot more if they got in front of a microphone and said 

" We know we suck, but it's our suck and we don't care what all you suckers, I mean season ticket holders think, we will continue to do it our misguided, assinine way as long as we want, and that's that."

After watching Danny B spew his bull crap Wednesday it's hard to think otherwise.

[FD19372]

4 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Has anyone on this esteemed panel of hockey gurus ever been to Vorhees or the Wells Fargo Center in a shirt and tie? The reason I ask is this. A lot, and I mean a lot of respected hockey people have entered Flyerland and shortly after arriving in the hockey ops suites theis nuts have fallen off and their spines have turned to dust.  Curious if this happened to you too.

Why is this so hard for so many. There are 31 other teams in the league, some successful, some not. All the examples needed are right there in front of their faces, yet somehow the great Flyer mojo continues to get to neither, they just seem so happy to be mediocre forever. I would respect them a lot more if they got in front of a microphone and said 

" We know we suck, but it's our suck and we don't care what all you suckers, I mean season ticket holders think, we will continue to do it our misguided, assinine way as long as we want, and that's that."

After watching Danny B spew his bull crap Wednesday it's hard to think otherwise.

Danny B can be an excellent GM, of they let him. The problem is the season ticket holders don't turn on the higher up enough, therefore there is no urgency to change philosophy.

As coveted as he may have been by other teams..Flyers ownership probably told Keith Jones, to tell him something along the lines of, "We're hiring you and giving you a lot of money for your first NHL exec job, but we're watching, and we still want you do things mostly our way".  I want a couple of years to see what either a) Danny B can do and/or b) what the execs allow him to do. On the surface, he's a good hire, in my opinion. However. due to those previously mentioned execs..he might be the equivalent on putting lipstick, on a pig.

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, FD19372 said:

Danny B can be an excellent GM, of they let him. The problem is the season ticket holders don't turn on the higher up enough, therefore there is no urgency to change philosophy.

As coveted as he may have been by other teams..Flyers ownership probably told Keith Jones, to tell him something along the lines of, "We're hiring you and giving you a lot of money for your first NHL exec job, but we're watching, and we still want you do things mostly our way".  I want a couple of years to see what either a) Danny B can do and/or b) what the execs allow him to do. On the surface, he's a good hire, in my opinion. However. due to those previously mentioned execs..he might be the equivalent on putting lipstick, on a pig.

 

He was a good hire because he replaced Fletcher. Anyone  not named Milbury would have been a good hire if they replaced Fletcher.

I don't think at this point anyone can say Briere is an excellent or crap GM. His best moves to date were a complete no brainer, drafting Michkov, getting rid of Hayes and his ilk. He's made some good trades, and not so good. His draft is a big? so far. We shall see.

[radoran]

3 hours ago, FD19372 said:

The problem is the season ticket holders don't turn on the higher up enough, therefore there is no urgency to change philosophy.

 

The STHs had bailed. The venue was empty. There was no more waiting list.

 

Briere took over and said "rebuild" and fans were on board BEFORE the possible playoff run. I know. I was one of them.

 

The "problem" this season is when it went from "rebuild culture and develop players" to "make the playoffs."

 

Guys who needed surgery should have been shut down and gotten surgery. You're building for Michkov not "anything can happen."

 

They were overdue for the air going out of the balloon and then it did at the worst possible time.

 

They overplay their rookie goalie and then throw a KHL goalie out for his first start six days after he arrives. And that blows up.

 

Then Torts goes all Torts because a team that mightn't have been anywhere near the playoffs misses them anyway.

 

They name leadership when they have no need to - beyond "playoff push." They face plant as the captain is healthy scratched a few weeks later.

 

And then the whole "make the playoffs" face plants as well.

 

This season wasn't about "trying to win every game" and making whatever short term decisions in pursuit of that regardless of long term implications. It was supposed to be about the long term.

 

Until it wasn't.

 

Barring a significant change in personnel next season is actually likely to be worse than this one. I know all the reasons it will be better.

 

I'm just waiting for them to say they're "definitely a playoff team" going into next season.

 

Anything can happen.

 

[SCFlyguy]

Just like a lot of people here predicted, the organization has no stomach for a rebuild.  All their talk last year was just that: talk.  The second there was a straw to grab to avoid a rebuild they grabbed it.

 

 

Quote

 

For about four and a half months, the rebuild looked expedited. The Flyers held down third place of the Metropolitan Division for over two months before falling into the eight-game spiral. They finished the season with 13 wins over top-10 teams and they saw promising contributions from a number of young players.

 

Maybe their timeline is coming into focus.

 

It's one of those questions where it's not black and white like maybe it was last summer," Briere said.

 

This team is doomed.  The organization has learned nothing.  It’s business as usual in Flyerland.

[tucson83]

19 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Just like a lot of people here predicted, the organization has no stomach for a rebuild.  All their talk last year was just that: talk.  The second there was a straw to grab to avoid a rebuild they grabbed it.

 

 

This team is doomed.  The organization has learned nothing.  It’s business as usual in Flyerland.

this is a rebuild, to you you have to tank to rebuild and yet you learned nothing from buffalo, ottawa, phoenix, never ending making the playoffs and the toronto maple leafs with their top 5 superstars cant beat the boston bruins, that have no top 5 guys. it doesnt sound like it's about winning cups, it's about getting superstars and not care if they crap the bed like matthews.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, tucson83 said:

this is a rebuild, to you you have to tank to rebuild and yet you learned nothing from buffalo, ottawa, phoenix, never ending making the playoffs and the toronto maple leafs with their top 5 superstars cant beat the boston bruins, that have no top 5 guys. it doesnt sound like it's about winning cups, it's about getting superstars and not care if they crap the bed like matthews.

 

Right...and you've learned nothing from Chicago, Tampa, Colorado, Pittsburgh, LA, Washington who've won 12 of the last 15 cups (and thats including Vegas who no other team can build like they did). 12 out of 14 sounds like pretty good way to build a team....but you keep dreaming your 2 of 14 is better. 

 

If the Flyers futile attempts at building a champion since the cap came into effect doesn't show you they have no clue how to do it, I don't know what to tell you. 

Edited April 21 by flyercanuck

[OccamsRazor]

Flyers are expected to announce a 2 year extension for Ivan Fedotov soon from X report...