Flyers and leaving points on the table

[yave1964]

Let me be clear, I am not rubbing it in about the Flyers collapse last night. Jesus, my Wings lost 6-2 to the Lightning and it was not even that close. I seldom post in the Flyer section even because the last thing I want to do is come across as a jerk rubbing it in when the Flyers lose or as if i am looking for brownie points by posting when they win.

  But good lord, I really do not remember a team having this many late game collapses in a single season. Ever.

  It started in November when Milan Lucic tied a game for his Kings with less than a minute to go and the Kings won in OT. Since then, the immortal Matt Hunwick won a game in regulation for his Leafs with a game winner with 8 seconds to go, less than a week later Brett Connolly scored the winner with a minute and  a half for his Bruins again the Flyers wound up with zero points in the game.

  A couple of weeks later, everyone remembers Glass Jaw McDonough getting drilled by Simmonds but the Rangers ended up tying the game with 12 seconds to go on a goal by Yandle and won in OT.

  And then, last night. A two goal lead with a minute to go, on the power play against a team that has been struggling to score even worse than a 75 year old man with halitosis in a singles bar. Columbus offense has went South, but last night Jenner and Atkinson, well you all know the rest.

  That is five games this season with late goals. The Flyers have ended up losing all five games, netting a measly 3 points in those games. dreadful.

    I took a little time to look at the Flyers record in one goal games, they actually started well, through mid-January they were 12-10 in one goal games, very acceptable. Since then they have been a woeful 4-9 with late third period collapses dotting the landscape. They blew third period leads against Montreal on February 19th, and against the Panthers on March 12th as well losing to the Habs in regulation and the Panthers in overtime.

  So what is the problem?

  I think it is a mix of the defense being young and inexperienced mixed with veteran retreads. Ghost has been amazing and deserves consideration for the Calder but he is small and in the desperate final minutes of a game can be pushed around. Streit and Del Zotto (before he was injured)  were always known for their offense, not their defense. Macdonald, ugh. Medvedev is tall but he is a reed. Gudas plays bigger than his size but is not someone you want out there in a tight game with a couple of minutes to go.

  The good news defensively is the Flyers are loaded with defensive prospects with skill so help is on the way. Just not this year.

  The forwards as well, Giroux is a brilliant player but again is small and can be pushed around at desperation time. Simmonds is more of an offensive force so his size and sandpaper do not translate to defensive zone coverage late in a game. Really only Couturier and to a lesser extent Schenn inspire confidence late in a game in the defensive zone.

  I do not blame Mason nor do I blame Neuvirth who have been solid. The fact is it is easy to collapse the zone in front of the Flyer net late in a game.

  This version of the Flyers reminds me of the 2001 Red Wings who were uber talented but lost to the Kings in the first round because the Wings were soft in their own zone and the Kings simply rushed the net with five men on every shift and wore Osgood out. Ozzie looked like a shell shocked war veteran by the end of the series and was gone a month later. My God Mason faced a ridiculous 54 shots from a Jacket team that cannot score.

  It is a fun three way race for two playoff spots between the Flyers, Isles and wings and every point counts. If the Flyers miss the postseason this latest third period collapse will weigh heavily throughout the summer.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

The fact is it is easy to collapse the zone in front of the Flyer net late in a game.

 

 

This is one of the biggest problems.

 

There is no one who can consistently clear the porch and make forwards pay the price around the net. Like the Pronger who use to skate back there and even before Pronger. If nothing else the Flyers might of been slower but they use to be bigger and tougher than most.

 

Those days are gone. Now they are a collection 0f 5-10 or 5-11 190- 200 pound forwards.

 

Just plain soft and easy to out muscle. Basically the anti Bobby Clarke molded team.

 

Some day soon maybe they learn to marry two. BIg guys who can also move and provide some toughness. We'll see.

[BluPuk]

Just FYI, late game collapses (we Leafs fans prefer to call it snatching defeat from the jaws of victory) is not exclusive to the Flyers. I'd be willing to bet the Leafs lead in that category..... 

[fan4ever]

@yave1964

 

Good points, all of it. It was very painful to witness and will no doubt come back to haunt us in the end. But we do have what appears to be some great help coming on our back end in another year or two. 

 

Looking forward to a fun season end and may the best team win that last playoff spot  and you sound nothing like a jerk or are you rubbing it in.  You're one of the classiest posters in the group of hockey fans.

[flyer4ever]

No skill. No speed. No size. No leadership.  Too much country club comfort. this playoff run only shows how mediocre the entire eastern conference is. I'm okay with the loss. Don't really want to see the Caps embarrassment series. Lose, draft rebuild. 

[flyercanuck]

5 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

No skill. No speed. No size. No leadership.  

 

Ok, that's a wee bit over the top wouldn't you say?

 

5 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Too much country club comfort. this playoff run only shows how mediocre the entire eastern conference is. I'm okay with the loss. Don't really want to see the Caps embarrassment series. Lose, draft rebuild. 

 

This I don't disagree with.

[Bertmega]

 

They stink. They'll never win. The need more Europeans. They need less Europeans. They need size. They need speed. 

 

Then I checked the standings and oh yeah they are in a playoff position for now. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

26 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

No skill. No speed.

 

[radoran]

41 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

This is one of the biggest problems.

 

There is no one who can consistently clear the porch and make forwards pay the price around the net. Like the Pronger who use to skate back there and even before Pronger. If nothing else the Flyers might of been slower but they use to be bigger and tougher than most.

 

Those days are gone. Now they are a collection 0f 5-10 or 5-11 190- 200 pound forwards.

 

Just plain soft and easy to out muscle. Basically the anti Bobby Clarke molded team.

 

Some day soon maybe they learn to marry two. BIg guys who can also move and provide some toughness. We'll see.

 

Wasn't that what Grossmannn was here for? Before he was "disappointing" and we're all "glad he's gone"?

 

My problem is the Flyers playing "not to lose" in that situation. It was 5-on-5 with an empty net at the other end and they can't even clear the damn zone - forget clearing in front of the net. They were trying to run out the clock and they got beat.

 

Mark this one down as a missed point if they fall just short of the playoffs.

 

And holy hell, I hate the shootout (and the Columbus goal song, for that matter - just terrible).

 

As for the draft position and all, I don't think that picking 13-14 will be much different than picking 15-17. And if that's the choice, I'd rather have the first round shot at the Caps and pick 15 than coming up just short and picking 13.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

Wasn't that what Grossmannn was here for? Before he was "disappointing" and we're all "glad he's gone"?

 

 

No. That is why they need to marry the two. Big guys who can move. GrossmanN was big but he couldn't move. Take his game and give him Ghost's mobility. then i'd take him.

 

Clarke's problem is he got guys who were bigger they just couldn't get around. Flyer just need some more size added.

[WordsOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, BluPuk said:

Just FYI, late game collapses (we Leafs fans prefer to call it snatching defeat from the jaws of victory) is not exclusive to the Flyers. I'd be willing to bet the Leafs lead in that category..... 

 

The Leafs would lead in that category... if not for the fact that they lead in the category of allowing the most and earliest first period goals and spend the greatest amount of time trying to come back from a deficit.  

[WordsOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, yave1964 said:

Since then, the immortal Matt Hunwick

 

His scoring touch is legendary! 

[flyer4ever]

This team has lost to the bottom feeders in the league for a few years now. Meltzer calls them trap games. I call it no accountability. #28 is a great player, I can't tell you how much I admire his skill, but he takes a lot of shifts off. When you're the captain and the highest paid player on the team that's a no no. Since January 1st they have played some great hockey, but have also lost 6 games to none playoff teams, including Toronto, Edmonton and Columbus. That's 12 points tossed away for all you we're gonna make the playoffs freaks. That's a lack of accountability. Too harsh? I think not. It ain't peewee. These players are sharing 70 million reasons why they should bring it every shift, game and practice. That's what Pronger brought. That's what Bobby Clarke is all about. You put the flying P on and the dog f*#king ends! 

[murraycraven]

Man, if not anything Flyers fans are very bipolar!

 

Look, I am not sure how any Flyers fan can be disappointed in this Team.  They have played very good hockey for the most part and have made the season interesting.  No matter if they get into the playoffs this has been a successful year:  Schenn has been a beast, Hak has been outstanding as a 1st year coach, Ghost, goaltending, etc...   Now is not our time as contenders but for fu*&s sake we can at least enjoy the playoff push without spouting off stupid **** like "we have no leadership, we have no skill..."   

 

This Team would be lucky to be in a playoff race at the beginning of the season and you know what?  They are actually in a playoff race - kudos to the Coach and the Players...

[mojo1917]

21 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

This team has lost to the bottom feeders in the league for a few years now. Meltzer calls them trap games. I call it no accountability. #28 is a great player, I can't tell you how much I admire his skill, but he takes a lot of shifts off. When you're the captain and the highest paid player on the team that's a no no. Since January 1st they have played some great hockey, but have also lost 6 games to none playoff teams, including Toronto, Edmonton and Columbus. That's 12 points tossed away for all you we're gonna make the playoffs freaks. That's a lack of accountability. Too harsh? I think not. It ain't peewee. These players are sharing 70 million reasons why they should bring it every shift, game and practice. That's what Pronger brought. That's what Bobby Clarke is all about. You put the flying P on and the dog f*#king ends! 

could not disagree more.

there is just no living up to the legend of Robert Earle... **** Pronger too.

this mentality of somebody has to be blamed in this city i find ridiculous. 

see where this team is without 28...every time there is a bad loss all this leadership crap comes out.

i don't see it.  i see a flawed team playing over there damn heads by a lot, i reckon that counts for nothing in regards to leadership, getting guys to buy in and sell out and play for each other doesn't mean anything.  

[murraycraven]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

could not disagree more.

there is just no living up to the legend of Robert Earle... **** Pronger too.

this mentality of somebody has to be blamed in this city i find ridiculous. 

see where this team is without 28...every time there is a bad loss all this leadership crap comes out.

i don't see it.  i see a flawed team playing over there damn heads by a lot, i reckon that counts for nothing in regards to leadership, getting guys to buy in and sell out and play for each other doesn't mean anything.  

 

[radoran]

I see it more as "consistency" than "leadership" - The Flyers are clearly a team that is "playing for each other" and that's the hallmark of "leadership."

 

BUT Flyers are 8-8-3 against the bottom two teams in each division. 3-4-2 against the last place teams.

 

Good teams rack up those points. The Caps are 8-0-2 against the last place teams and 15-2-3 against the bottom two teams. Is that Ovechkin's "leadership" or is that just better top to bottom talent? I recall many people questioning Ovechkin's "leadership" skills. And they still do.

 

The Stars are 7-4-1 against the last place teams and 15-6-1 against the bottom two teams. Is that all because of Benn's "leadership"?

 

The Flyers need more consistency in their games to play well all the time. That's not leadership, per se, that's maturity and growth and, yes, top to bottom talent.

 

They're not that far away, but they're not there yet entirely.

[murraycraven]

21 minutes ago, radoran said:

Good teams rack up those points.

 

 

Frankly, I think this is where those same silly G expectations come from.  Let's be honest here - this is not a good Team.  In fact most would say they are an average Team.  Good teams, as you say, beat teams no matter where they are in the standings.  Average and poor Teams are inconsistent... this Team has managed to stay in the playoffs b/c they are playing a Team game.  They are buying into the system and playing a better team game than I have seen in a long time.   The fact remains they are an average team (talent wise) and playing above their head - a testament to the leadership on this team and the Coach.  

 

The tired excuse of "no leadership" is pure laziness when it comes to hockey.  Philly's favorite thing to do is bitch about the goaltender and the captain.   And you know what?  Please show me any Captain in the league right now that is a Clarke or Pronger type - Toews is a great captain but he leads by example.  Those types of captains really dont exist anymore...

 

I agree with everything you say but the expectations by some fans are irrational.

[brelic]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

My problem is the Flyers playing "not to lose" in that situation. It was 5-on-5 with an empty net at the other end and they can't even clear the damn zone - forget clearing in front of the net. They were trying to run out the clock and they got beat.

 

 

To be fair, it was like that all game long. You don't allow 50+ shots on goal by being strong at clearing your zone  

 

[eleven24]

3 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

No skill. No speed. No size. No leadership.  Too much country club comfort. this playoff run only shows how mediocre the entire eastern conference is. I'm okay with the loss. Don't really want to see the Caps embarrassment series. Lose, draft rebuild. 

 

No skill, size or leadership?  Country club?  I honestly have to ask: Are you talking about the Flyers?  The team that was as recently as 4 days ago the talk of the NHL?  

 

As for the Caps, I'm almost looking forward to the playoffs to see in which manner and how quickly they get knocked out.

[eleven24]

Expectation.  Heading into this season if someone told you the Flyers would be right in the middle of a playoff race, would you have been disappointed?  Even if the Flyers don't make the playoffs this year, it's still been one hell of a season.  I am loving being able to watch Hextall's plan unfold.  Gostisbehere - came out of nowhere this year and literally became the talk of the NHL.  Not just the Flyers, the NHL.  And he wears orange & black.  Those same people talking about Ghost are also looking at the Flyers and saying the same thing: they're going to be scary good in a few years. 

 

So this year, it's great seeing guys like Cousins and Laughton getting some playing time.  It's a flashback to gritty hard working hockey watching Bellemare, White and Vandevelde just outwork opposing teams top lines.  Then there's the emergence of Schenn and Couturier into legit top players.  Oh, and with Neuvirth we now have a 1A and 1B.  Two goalies where the discussion is which should play, not because we're looking for the best of the worst but because damn... they're both playing awesome in net.

 

So right now, as frustrating as that loss last night may be, there is this enormous bigger picture.  The Flyers are fighting for the EIGHTH playoff seed right now.  The mere notion of that just 4-5 years ago would've been revolting to Flyers fans.  Yet 4-5 years ago it was all or nothing.  Our "maybe next year" game plan was always "which free agents can they add in the off season?" and "which past their prime players with big contracts that we signed as FA's can we dump?".

 

Those days are gone.  The future is extremely bright.

 

Enjoy this ride.

[King Knut]

4 hours ago, yave1964 said:

Let me be clear, I am not rubbing it in about the Flyers collapse last night. Jesus, my Wings lost 6-2 to the Lightning and it was not even that close. I seldom post in the Flyer section even because the last thing I want to do is come across as a jerk rubbing it in when the Flyers lose or as if i am looking for brownie points by posting when they win.

  But good lord, I really do not remember a team having this many late game collapses in a single season. Ever.

  It started in November when Milan Lucic tied a game for his Kings with less than a minute to go and the Kings won in OT. Since then, the immortal Matt Hunwick won a game in regulation for his Leafs with a game winner with 8 seconds to go, less than a week later Brett Connolly scored the winner with a minute and  a half for his Bruins again the Flyers wound up with zero points in the game.

  A couple of weeks later, everyone remembers Glass Jaw McDonough getting drilled by Simmonds but the Rangers ended up tying the game with 12 seconds to go on a goal by Yandle and won in OT.

  And then, last night. A two goal lead with a minute to go, on the power play against a team that has been struggling to score even worse than a 75 year old man with halitosis in a singles bar. Columbus offense has went South, but last night Jenner and Atkinson, well you all know the rest.

  That is five games this season with late goals. The Flyers have ended up losing all five games, netting a measly 3 points in those games. dreadful.

    I took a little time to look at the Flyers record in one goal games, they actually started well, through mid-January they were 12-10 in one goal games, very acceptable. Since then they have been a woeful 4-9 with late third period collapses dotting the landscape. They blew third period leads against Montreal on February 19th, and against the Panthers on March 12th as well losing to the Habs in regulation and the Panthers in overtime.

  So what is the problem?

  I think it is a mix of the defense being young and inexperienced mixed with veteran retreads. Ghost has been amazing and deserves consideration for the Calder but he is small and in the desperate final minutes of a game can be pushed around. Streit and Del Zotto (before he was injured)  were always known for their offense, not their defense. Macdonald, ugh. Medvedev is tall but he is a reed. Gudas plays bigger than his size but is not someone you want out there in a tight game with a couple of minutes to go.

  The good news defensively is the Flyers are loaded with defensive prospects with skill so help is on the way. Just not this year.

  The forwards as well, Giroux is a brilliant player but again is small and can be pushed around at desperation time. Simmonds is more of an offensive force so his size and sandpaper do not translate to defensive zone coverage late in a game. Really only Couturier and to a lesser extent Schenn inspire confidence late in a game in the defensive zone.

  I do not blame Mason nor do I blame Neuvirth who have been solid. The fact is it is easy to collapse the zone in front of the Flyer net late in a game.

  This version of the Flyers reminds me of the 2001 Red Wings who were uber talented but lost to the Kings in the first round because the Wings were soft in their own zone and the Kings simply rushed the net with five men on every shift and wore Osgood out. Ozzie looked like a shell shocked war veteran by the end of the series and was gone a month later. My God Mason faced a ridiculous 54 shots from a Jacket team that cannot score.

  It is a fun three way race for two playoff spots between the Flyers, Isles and wings and every point counts. If the Flyers miss the postseason this latest third period collapse will weigh heavily throughout the summer.

 

 

 

...yeah.  Fun isn't it.  I guess they like to keep it interesting.  I imagine there wouldn't be a race at all if it weren't for this kind of crap.  

[Lindbergh31]

55 minutes ago, eleven24 said:

Expectation.  Heading into this season if someone told you the Flyers would be right in the middle of a playoff race, would you have been disappointed?  Even if the Flyers don't make the playoffs this year, it's still been one hell of a season.  I am loving being able to watch Hextall's plan unfold.  Gostisbehere - came out of nowhere this year and literally became the talk of the NHL.  Not just the Flyers, the NHL.  And he wears orange & black.  Those same people talking about Ghost are also looking at the Flyers and saying the same thing: they're going to be scary good in a few years. 

 

So this year, it's great seeing guys like Cousins and Laughton getting some playing time.  It's a flashback to gritty hard working hockey watching Bellemare, White and Vandevelde just outwork opposing teams top lines.  Then there's the emergence of Schenn and Couturier into legit top players.  Oh, and with Neuvirth we now have a 1A and 1B.  Two goalies where the discussion is which should play, not because we're looking for the best of the worst but because damn... they're both playing awesome in net.

 

So right now, as frustrating as that loss last night may be, there is this enormous bigger picture.  The Flyers are fighting for the EIGHTH playoff seed right now.  The mere notion of that just 4-5 years ago would've been revolting to Flyers fans.  Yet 4-5 years ago it was all or nothing.  Our "maybe next year" game plan was always "which free agents can they add in the off season?" and "which past their prime players with big contracts that we signed as FA's can we dump?".

 

Those days are gone.  The future is extremely bright.

 

Enjoy this ride.

You gotta love Flyers fans, we have to bitch about something otherwise the world isn't right! I agree with you we as Flyers fans should enjoy the ride these Flyers are on until the end of the regular season. If they make the playoffs that it's awesome that we get to watch some more Flyers games. I love what Hexie has done with the team, excited to see the young guys develop (brings back memories of the 84/85 Flyers team). The majority of hockey fans expected the Flyers not the make the playoffs by a wide margin yet because of how bad the Eastern Conference is they still might make it in. Personally, I was hoping for a high draft pick to keep the rebuild going but since that's not going to happen, maybe a bonus of playoff hockey wouldn't be too bad. I'm excited to see what Hexie is going to do at the draft and free agency. It's finally nice to see a GM with a plan and an owner that we haven't heard from too much this season. The future looks bright.

[Podein25]

4 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

The majority of hockey fans expected the Flyers not the make the playoffs by a wide margin yet because of how bad the Eastern Conference is they still might make it in. Personally, I was hoping for a high draft pick to keep the rebuild going but since that's not going to happen, maybe a bonus of playoff hockey wouldn't be too bad. I'm excited to see what Hexie is going to do at the draft and free agency. It's finally nice to see a GM with a plan and an owner that we haven't heard from too much this season. The future looks bright.

 

This captures my evolving feelings perfectly.

 

It's just nice to see your team playing well as a team, with structure, with good goal tending and some exciting talent like Ghost emerging right before your eyes. Seeing it in the playoffs, where the intensity is so much greater, would just be fun. Painful ultimately, but expectations are low. They just have to exceed them. Taking WSH to 7 games would be exceeding expectations. It's unlikely, but you never know. The Flyers just went 8-1-1 and were the talk of the league with their dominant play (imagine: with McDud and Schultz and a rookie as half your D!).

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I'm very content with how the season has played out so far. I certainly didn't expect the Flyers to contend for a playoff spot and I expected them to finish with a bottom five finishing. Instead, Hextall and company have the ship going in the right direction. There's still work to do, namely acquiring a legitimate top six left winger and getting rid of some bodies on defense, but I"m content with what I've seen so far. We all saw Radko Gudas emerge as a legitimate top four defender. Before getting his wrist operated on, Michael Del Zotto had completely changed his game and became more of a shut down guy and was thriving in the role. Shayne Gostisbehere stepped in and became that offensive dynamo from the back end. Nick Cousins emerged as a legitimate bottom six forward who can contribute offensively. Brayden Schenn stepped up and has become a top line left winger for the club. So, there's lots to be content about. There are three potentially franchise changing defensemen about to join the club in the next two to three years (Morin, Sanheim, Provorov). There are at least four or five players who are about to hit their prime (Schenn, Couturier, Del Zotto, Gudas, and Gostisbehere). The goaltending position is strong and there's going to be a plethora of young forwards that will eventually be in the line up on a full time basis (Weal, Konecny, Aube Kubel, Leier, plus whoever is drafted this year). 

 

This is a fantastic spot for the kids to be in. I'm sure Hakstol using the bend don't break method is simply because of the defenders he has available. When the other three kids get into the lineup, this club is going to look completely different. This playoff run is great for the young guys on the team as well because they're going to learn from this. The slow start at the beginning of the year is what killed them. I certainly don't expect that to be a problem next season. Great learning experience for everyone. This will be a playoff club next season and the season after that, it's going to be a Stanley Cup contender. Bank on it.